Maui thai plum

[HumbleWCGuy]

It's not "my wing chun grappling" -- just like it isn't "my chi sao" -- but simply the method of WCK that comes from our ancestors.

It is yours in the sense that only you and larper schools that have no interest in actual fighting application share your views on WC. Although, I think that your understanding of WC is starting to expand. WC is an art with limitations, but your past posts on the limitations of wc were just idiotic for someone with the experiences and martial arts tenure that you claim to have.

[t_niehoff]

It is yours in the sense that only you and larper schools that have no interest in actual fighting application share your views on WC. Although, I think that your understanding of WC is starting to expand. WC is an art with limitations, but your past posts on the limitations of wc were just idiotic for someone with the experiences and martial arts tenure that you claim to have.

You haven't learned WCK and don't train it. Yet, I'm the LARPER! Right.

It's a very easy thing to tell. Just see if the WCK people who are successfully doing in fighting/sparring (full intensity) what they train to do as they train to do it. Are they using WCK movement (the movement you learn in the forms and drills of WCK) or are they, for example, kickboxing?

[t_niehoff]

It looks like my posts are starting to sink in. Eventually, you will come to understand that those techniques that you use to "strike your way into 'the phone booth'" also work to stay at range so that your Wing Chun isn't so one dimensional. Those tools allow Alan and company to "WC kickbox."

You don't know what Alan is doing.

Your posts are nonsense. You don't even practice WCK.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You don't know what Alan is doing.

Your posts are nonsense. You don't even practice WCK.

Apparently I know more than you because you conveniently ignored the comments that I reposted from Alan that directly contradict your claims about what he does. We see Alan's students kickboxing, and he claims to be using straight CSL. Do you care to comment or are you going to continue to avoid the question?

[HumbleWCGuy]

You haven't learned WCK and don't train it. Yet, I'm the LARPER! Right.

Yea, so that's why every body who does wc pretty much laughs at your posts or ignores them. You flip flop opinions, and make wild claims. LOL... Now you are trying to use my ideas and pretend that you thought of them. The bottom line is that you are 100% clueless about WC.

It's a very easy thing to tell. Just see if the WCK people who are successfully doing in fighting/sparring (full intensity) what they train to do as they train to do it. Are they using WCK movement (the movement you learn in the forms and drills of WCK) or are they, for example, kickboxing?

I do both. They can be taught concurrently or cyclically.

[SAAMAG]

You asked about details. Can you do that -- control the opponent (toss him around like a rag doll) while striking him -- in chi sao? If you can't do that -- WCK with the training wheels on -- no details about how to do it without the training wheels will be much help.

I was actually looking to try and steer the conversation back to what the OP had in mind...which was finding solutions that WING CHUN may have for clinching. I genuinely felt that you might have some solid details talk about towards that end.

But of course in Terence fashion your best response was, and I paraphrase: "I could explain but you wouldn't understand because unless you can throw people around like a rag-doll"??

Classic. Basically what that means is that you have no details to talk about...and you're trying to put the onus on the other guy to make it seem like it's HIS fault you're not able to discuss things further. Quite pathetic. Tell you what...I'll just take it from here because it seems that you're not going to be able to. It's time to put up or shut up Terence. If you really know what you're talking about....then start giving details. If you don't .... then you'll keep dodging the details.

[SAAMAG]

You asked about details. Can you do that -- control the opponent (toss him around like a rag doll) while striking him -- in chi sao? If you can't do that -- WCK with the training wheels on -- no details about how to do it without the training wheels will be much help.

I was actually looking to try and steer the conversation back to what the OP had in mind...which was finding solutions that WING CHUN may have for clinching.

But of course in Terence fashion your best response was, and I paraphrase: "I could explain but you wouldn't understand unless you can throw people around like a rag-doll"??

Classic. Basically what that means is that you have no details to talk about...and you're trying to put the onus on the other guy to make it seem like it's HIS fault you're not able to discuss things further. Quite pathetic. Tell you what...I'll just take it from here because it seems that you're not going to be able to. It's time to put up or shut up Terence. If you really know what you're talking about....then start giving details. If you don't .... then we all will continue to know you're full of shit.

BTW...the ability to throw someone around like a rag doll only comes when there is a significant disparity in skill levels. i.e. new guy versus experienced guy, or your imaginary world class guys tossing you around. You're not going to see to equally skilled guys clinching and one be manhandled by the other...what you WILL see is a lot of neutralizing and countering. All the videos I've put up have proven that.

[t_niehoff]

I was actually looking to try and steer the conversation back to what the OP had in mind...which was finding solutions that WING CHUN may have for clinching.

WCK IS clinching. Or, to be more accurate, controlling while striking.

But of course in Terence fashion your best response was, and I paraphrase: "I could explain but you wouldn't understand unless you can throw people around like a rag-doll"??

And my point is that if a person doesn't have a grasp of the fundamentals of WCK's method of controlling an opponent -- which we learn in chi sao -- how can we talk about specific details of doing that in fighting?

We need to have a commonality of experience to draw from to talk about these things.

Classic. Basically what that means is that you have no details to talk about...and you're trying to put the onus on the other guy to make it seem like it's HIS fault you're not able to discuss things further. Quite pathetic. Tell you what...I'll just take it from here because it seems that you're not going to be able to. It's time to put up or shut up Terence. If you really know what you're talking about....then start giving details. If you don't .... then we all will continue to know you're full of shit.

Here's a detail: your weight MUST be on your toes (not on your heels, not flat-footed). Does that help you? It all begins with body structure, and that begins with being on your toes (balls of your feet or the kidney 1 point for the traditionalists among you). If you don't have good body structure, NOTHING else matters. That's fundamental #1 and everything builds off of it.

But if a person doesn't have that skill, then what else can we talk about?

BTW...the ability to throw someone around like a rag doll only comes when there is a significant disparity in skill levels. i.e. new guy versus experienced guy, or your imaginary world class guys tossing you around.

No it doesn't. It occurs with equally skilled fighters all the time.

You're not going to see to equally skilled guys clinching and one be manhandled by the other...what you WILL see is a lot of neutralizing and countering. All the videos I've put up have proven that.

Even when you are neutralizing and countering, you are getting jerked around like a rag doll. That's the nature of clinch. Even when you are neutral, both sides are jerking the other around.

[SAAMAG]

Thanks for taking the bait. I figured that would get you writing a bit more. I'd just like for you to elaborate and have meaningful conversation as opposed to the normal crap. I think you've got good knowledge to share and that hoarding it under the guise of "you wouldnt understand" does the people that could benefit from it no good.

You're right, the stance plays a fundamental role in all systems. I agree on the balls of the feet with clinching as well...I've never seen clinching done any other way.

As far a rag doll stuff--what you described for equally skilled folks is just normal clinching. Back and forth. When you say "rag doll" that means one guy is getting handled and can't do anything about it. In my definition anyway. So we've got different views of the phrase.

But going back to the original question, assuming people are drawing from the same pool of knowledge, what are some of the ways that WC currently has to address the clinch game?

[t_niehoff]

Thanks for taking the bait. I figured that would get you writing a bit more. I'd just like for you to elaborate and have meaningful conversation as opposed to the normal crap. I think you've got good knowledge to share and that hoarding it under the guise of "you wouldnt understand" does the people that could benefit from it no good.

You're right, the stance plays a fundamental role in all systems. I agree on the balls of the feet with clinching as well...I've never seen clinching done any other way.

But going back to the original question, assuming people are drawing from the same pool of knowledge, what are some of the ways that WC currently has to address the clinch game?

I think there is something fundamentally wrong with your question. It's like asking "how does surfing address staying on the surfboard?"

WCK IS a clinch game so it already "addresses" it. Everything we do "addresses" it. WCK's method is to join (dap) with your opponent and cut off (jeet) his offense, then to break his structure (chum) and deliver your weapons (biu), all the while maintaining a flexible attachment (chi) to him.

[SAAMAG]

I don't think it's a difficult question.

In order to surf, the rider has to have certain techniques engrained to be able to stay on the board and ride the wave back in.

WCK has certain techniques to address fighting. In this case the area of fighting is clinching. If WCK has certain tactics used specifically for clinching...what are they?

For example, in my past reply in this thread, I mentioned a technique used in MT to transition from being in the dominant clinch to using the dominant clinch:

Using a wedge to come forward, that's also used as a tactic in Muay Thai and shouldn't be alien to wc folk either (because in one of the tactics you're basically using a pak/gam to the inside elbow while you biu over your hand into the created space into man geng sao).

It provides more detail than saying "all of it is used for the clinch" and specifically addresses the OP's question in a wing chun context.

[bennyvt]

I tend to go to the outside as someone with good elbow power tend to lock my hands between his elbows. I find driving from the outside breaks the waist as well.
I was hopiong this would get onto clinch, wrestling ties etc as they are all the same really. I wrote the plum as most people think of that as clinching.The idea is for the VT guys to say what they have tried, did it work etc. its about learning more then trying to tell you what to do. There must be a few people that train with other styles but still use their VT. I find that my VT is good right up until they get so close as to body lock me. then I have to shoot for hooks and get my base again then make space and VT again. Any body have the same problem.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't think it's a difficult question.

In order to surf, the rider has to have certain techniques engrained to be able to stay on the board and ride the wave back in.

WCK has certain techniques to address fighting. In this case the area of fighting is clinching. If WCK has certain tactics used specifically for clinching...what are they?

For example, in my past reply in this thread, I mentioned a technique used in MT to transition from being in the dominant clinch to using the dominant clinch:

Using a wedge to come forward, that's also used as a tactic in Muay Thai and shouldn't be alien to wc folk either (because in one of the tactics you're basically using a pak/gam to the inside elbow while you biu over your hand into the created space into man geng sao).

It provides more detail than saying "all of it is used for the clinch" and specifically addresses the OP's question in a wing chun context.

Here is the deal... His knowledge of WC boarders on nil. His understanding of the MT clinch involves that one time that he went to the MT class and got snatched up and a few youtube videos. His knowledge has run its coarse so now it is that you are too stupid to understand anything rather than the truth which is that he has told you everything that he knows.

[SAAMAG]

Here is the deal... His knowledge of WC boarders on nil. His understanding of the MT clinch involves that one time that he went to the MT class and got snatched up and a few youtube videos. His knowledge has run its coarse so now it is that you are too stupid to understand anything rather than the truth which is that he has told you everything that he knows.

Could very well be the case....though some of what he says I can specifically identify with, and it only comes with first hand experience.