Maui thai plum

[Liddel]

This is as bad as the guys who believe foul tactics will save them on the ground against decently skilled ground fighters.

Many people here posted what i to would have posted, so i added to the conversation rather than repeating.

First off - im guessing you've never sparred krav guys. Low groin shots are common and effective IME.

Secondably - i dont "beleive" as if it was "faith based". Its my experience. Which is why i did post.... you must be training with world class guys im in no way saying this works for everyone or all of the time. But it can and has work for me. and its relavant to the conversation, hater !

For someone that preaches 'train how you fight, fight how you train' mentality you sure dont let that spread across the board. Your my way or the highway mentality is amusing

Im guessing you love to turtle up on the ground to because you train with no knees to the head whilst on the ground....

And if they have they plumb, you won't have ANY leverage to "turn their chin" or do anything to them.

Just because what i posted is a tech you dont train for or against, doesnt mean you can throw your toys. If you were familiar with it you would know where and how to gain such leverage.

It's incredible to me that in this day, people continue to believe this nonsense.

If i've made it work, remind me why i wouldnt believe in it ?

And that's why in our training we should work toward developing higher levels of actual skill rather than training to fail by relying on silly foul-tactic tricks.

Whos relying on it, I offered ONE idea seperate to that of others that had already posted the obvious.
You get your panties twisted too much, back away from posting for a week.

And while your last quuote here is true, IME its equaly important to realise there are "take on" and "take out" mentalities.

The fact you post

silly foul-tactic tricks

tells me you havent trained Larry Jordons dirty dozen LOL

[bennyvt]

If I can reach I always try to punch first. As this is the same action as the jum on the arm and they tend to let go after one or two punches to the face. I can't on the guy I was talking about as he is 6 foot something and Im about 5'3 so his head is too far away to hit. Hence the jum sao to break the hold. I have also tried the lan sao but being small it doesn't work very well. I can but the head control needs to be loose or you just end up pushing your own head down.

[SAAMAG]

If you're using your arms to put down pressure on top of the other guys arms
, you're typically doing that to eliminate the other guy from kneeing your head (because in order to knee you he would have to open his arms up to bring your head down). However that doesn't provide a solution to body knees. So like many things it's a temporary position.

IMO you're too small to be allowing folks to get you into a full inside clinch. Your best strategy is to avoid clinching. Still train it of course, just in case, but with the height & weight disparity you'd typically be exposed to versus the average guy...I'd say learn to sense and avoid the full clinch.

Something else, is you absolutely need to keep your hips in close to the other guy to eliminate the space necessary for them to knee you. Also make sure to have grips to sense if they're going to let go for a quick elbow.

Turtle that neck!!! It's not shrugging your shoulders only...it's also sinking your neck, making sure your head is above your neck, sitting back and straight.

Your skill in wing chun should allow you to maintain the longer distance clinching, and to be able to dirty-box your way back into a preferred range as well.

But in general, you just need more time working with the clinch in training.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Many people here posted what i to would have posted, so i added to the conversation rather than repeating.

First off - im guessing you've never sparred krav guys. Low groin shots are common and effective IME.

Secondably - i dont "beleive" as if it was "faith based". Its my experience. Which is why i did post.... you must be training with world class guys im in no way saying this works for everyone or all of the time. But it can and has work for me. and its relavant to the conversation, hater !

For someone that preaches 'train how you fight, fight how you train' mentality you sure dont let that spread across the board. Your my way or the highway mentality is amusing

Im guessing you love to turtle up on the ground to because you train with no knees to the head whilst on the ground....



Just because what i posted is a tech you dont train for or against, doesnt mean you can throw your toys. If you were familiar with it you would know where and how to gain such leverage.



If i've made it work, remind me why i wouldnt believe in it ?



Whos relying on it, I offered ONE idea seperate to that of others that had already posted the obvious.
You get your panties twisted too much, back away from posting for a week.

And while your last quuote here is true, IME its equaly important to realise there are "take on" and "take out" mentalities.

The fact you post



tells me you havent trained Larry Jordons dirty dozen LOL

For posers like T., it is an either or scenario with foul tactics. You are a Larper poser if you advocate them and a great warrior if you ignore them.

I heard a great story about Erik Paulson at an early mma event. He was the favorite to win, but they had few rules in the old days. Erik, with his then long hair, got out there with an old boxer (James Warring) who grabbed his hair and beat Erik like he stole some candy. To Erik's credit, he took a 16 minute beating in a no time limit match. I am not sure why his corner let this go on before they finally threw in the towel? The very fact that Erik went out there with long hair says something about the sport mind set.

The point is that foul tactics can level the playing field against a sport minded fighter. However, you have to always consider that anyone can use foul tactics and the victory will go to the person who understand how to dominate the ranges in those situations. Foul tactics can't be the excuse to not learn about a range.

[HumbleWCGuy]

For the fools who think that I lie...This link makes mention of the hair pulling by James Warring. http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/8/24...-boxers-in-mma

[Dragonzbane76]

nice clips... enjoyed watching some of the older stuff. Wish you could have found the paulson/warring fight. would liked to have watched that.

[t_niehoff]

Many people here posted what i to would have posted, so i added to the conversation rather than repeating.

First off - im guessing you've never sparred krav guys. Low groin shots are common and effective IME.

In the context of dealing with the plumb -- which is what this discussion is about -- you are not going to be able to do a groin shot. I explained why. Go train with some competent MT people and you will see that I am telling you the truth.

Secondably - i dont "beleive" as if it was "faith based". Its my experience. Which is why i did post.... you must be training with world class guys im in no way saying this works for everyone or all of the time. But it can and has work for me. and its relavant to the conversation, hater !

That may be your experience with people who don't have a good plumb -- and, if people don't have skill with it, people can come up will all kinds of silly answers. That's why training with incompetent people is a huge problem: you think that you have an answer when in fact you've never even encountered the real problem.

For someone that preaches 'train how you fight, fight how you train' mentality you sure dont let that spread across the board. Your my way or the highway mentality is amusing

What I'm saying is that when you train with people skilled in the plumb, your ideas won't work -- if you had ever experienced a good plumb you'd know what I was talking about. You don't know because you haven't experienced it.

Im guessing you love to turtle up on the ground to because you train with no knees to the head whilst on the ground....

Keep imagining things because that seems to be what you are good at.

Just because what i posted is a tech you dont train for or against, doesnt mean you can throw your toys. If you were familiar with it you would know where and how to gain such leverage.

When you get caught in a good plumb, you are being yanked around continually by your head, and every yank is punctuated by a knee or elbow slamming into you. You won't even be able to reach their groin with your hands and if you lift a leg to kick, you'll be flying through the air. Nor will you have any power to pull his hair/chin since he will put his head next to yours (providing stability and giving him more leverage).

If i've made it work, remind me why i wouldnt believe in it ?

Sure you have -- against people who have no skill. BFD. That's like saying you were able to pinch your way out of the mount against someone.

Whos relying on it, I offered ONE idea seperate to that of others that had already posted the obvious.
You get your panties twisted too much, back away from posting for a week.

And while your last quuote here is true, IME its equaly important to realise there are "take on" and "take out" mentalities.

What is important is to train stuff that is fundamentally sound (and so works in sport), and not stuff that is not -- because then you are training to fail.

[t_niehoff]

For posers like T., it is an either or scenario with foul tactics. You are a Larper poser if you advocate them and a great warrior if you ignore them.

You are either a liar or stupid or both. Go back and read what I wrote.

To make it easier: "being "sport-oriented" doesn't mean you don't take foul tactics into account. It just means that you have developed skills that actually work."

Sure, foul tactics CAN work, and sport fighters take them into account. But, they know when they can work, how they can work, etc. BECAUSE they have tons of experience "playing the game" and the base-skills to play the game.

Anyone who has put in time training with decent MT people (with good plumbs) will KNOW striking the groin won't work or that pulling the hair is silly. Go over to a MT forum and ask. They'll tell you.

I heard a great story about Erik Paulson at an early mma event. He was the favorite to win, but they had few rules in the old days. Erik, with his then long hair, got out there with an old boxer (James Warring) who grabbed his hair and beat Erik like he stole some candy. To Erik's credit, he took a 16 minute beating in a no time limit match. I am not sure why his corner let this go on before they finally threw in the towel? The very fact that Erik went out there with long hair says something about the sport mind set.

And Royce used Kimo's hair to hold him in his guard in their fight.

Try to get this into your minuscule brain: I'm not saying that hair pulling can't SOMETIMES be effective. Like most foul tactics, they can be effective IF USED AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME. This does not mean, however, that they will always work, in any situation, all the time. And, in this case, hair pulling won't save you if you are caught in plumb because you are in a bad position -- it is like thinking hair pulling will same you when mounted. It won't.

The point is that foul tactics can level the playing field against a sport minded fighter. However, you have to always consider that anyone can use foul tactics and the victory will go to the person who understand how to dominate the ranges in those situations. Foul tactics can't be the excuse to not learn about a range.

No, ABSOLUTELY WRONG. What foul tactics do is give the sport fighter more options when not sport fighting. When the sport fighter takes you down and mounts you, he can then easily thumb you in the eye.

The problem with non-sport fighters is that they think they will be able to pull off foul tactics against trained sport fighters to, in your words, level the playing field. No, they won't. If you don't have the fundamental skill set already in place -- which only comes from sport fighting -- then you won't have a base from which to effectively use any foul tactics.

[HumbleWCGuy]

No, ABSOLUTELY WRONG. What foul tactics do is give the sport fighter more options when not sport fighting. When the sport fighter takes you down and mounts you, he can then easily thumb you in the eye.

The problem with non-sport fighters is that they think they will be able to pull off foul tactics against trained sport fighters to, in your words, level the playing field. No, they won't. If you don't have the fundamental skill set already in place -- which only comes from sport fighting -- then you won't have a base from which to effectively use any foul tactics.

Your mentality is that it is an either or scenario with foul tactics. One can train hard against resisting opponents as with sport or even sport fight, and not be a sport fighter per say.

I fought sport for example but the normal training always involved thinking about eye jabs, pulling someones hair, pulling someone's shirt over their head from the plum etc. When you fight sport competitions, you lose that because you start looking for sport-legal answers to situation all the time. For a person who advocates that training should look like fighting and vice versa, you don't understand how sport training conditions people. Ideally, one trains sport and practices foul tactics, that is a remarkable fighter.

Tell you what T. Bjjers hardly ever train finger locks or wrist locks. Next time you spar a higher belt. Slap a wrist lock on them and then ask your self if they really would have stopped that in the street?

[t_niehoff]

Your mentality is that it is an either or scenario with foul tactics. One can train hard against resisting opponents as with sport or even sport fight, and not be a sport fighter per say.

No, that's not my mentality nor is it the mentality of the sport-fighters that I know and train with.

If you train realistically/functionally, then you will have adopted a sport-model of training (like judo). To do realistic training means you really DO it, really PERFORM it, etc. in practice against a genuinely resisting opponent. And that's because the sport-model is based on the understanding that we only get better at a skill by really doing that skill. Sport is game-based training: here is the game, here are the skills you need to play the game, etc.

I fought sport for example but the normal training always involved thinking about eye jabs, pulling someones hair, pulling someone's shirt over their head from the plum etc. When you fight sport competitions, you lose that because you start looking for sport-legal answers to situation all the time.

No. This is the sort of thing that tells me you aren't telling the truth and haven't really trained much in the way of sport-fighting. Sport doesn't make you look ONLY for sport-legal answers or not see other opportunities, it focuses on what has PROVED to work, time and time again. You focus on those things that work, not untested things. So when you need an answer, you go to what has PROVED to work.

For a person who advocates that training should look like fighting and vice versa, you don't understand how sport training conditions people. Ideally, one trains sport and practices foul tactics, that is a remarkable fighter.

Yeah, sport fighting conditions you to use what proves again and again to work.

Foul tactics won't work if you don't have the base skills already in place. If you are a poor grappler, foul tactics won't help you. If you are a good grappler, you will know the various foul tactics and be able to use them. Without sport training, the foul tactics are worthless. It's the same with stand-up and clinch.

Tell you what T. Bjjers hardly ever train finger locks or wrist locks. Next time you spar a higher belt. Slap a wrist lock on them and then ask your self if they really would have stopped that in the street?

You seem to labor under the delusion that sport fighters are oblivious to these things. They're not. Nor will they be open for you to apply these things. There are wrist locks in BJJ. Just like there are arm bars. But, you're not going to be able to pull of a wrist lock any easier than you will an arm bar -- both DEPEND on your base grappling skill. And that comes via sport training. Moreover, just like to develop skill hitting an arm bar, you need to realistically practice hitting the wrist lock if you expect to develop any significant ability to hit one. Or, do you think that this skill will just magically come to you? If you don't regularly practice it in rolling, you won't be able to do it.

Finger locks are just useless.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Finger locks are just useless.

tell that to Major Payne !

[HumbleWCGuy]

No, that's not my mentality nor is it the mentality of the sport-fighters that I know and train with.

If you train realistically/functionally, then you will have adopted a sport-model of training (like judo). To do realistic training means you really DO it, really PERFORM it, etc. in practice against a genuinely resisting opponent. And that's because the sport-model is based on the understanding that we only get better at a skill by really doing that skill. Sport is game-based training: here is the game, here are the skills you need to play the game, etc.

That's funny coming from a guy who has never entered a single full-contact event or even trained like he were going to one. There is a lot that happens to you physically and psychologically on the way to a fight and your complete lack of understanding of that is evident. You probably didn't even play middle school basketball or anything.

[t_niehoff]

That's funny coming from a guy who has never entered a single full-contact event or even trained like he were going to one. There is a lot that happens to you physically and psychologically on the way to a fight and your complete lack of understanding of that is evident. You probably didn't even play middle school basketball or anything.

We're not talking about what "happens to you physically and psychologically on the way to a fight" -- every time you get nailed on something, you shift to something else that's not pertinent to the discussion. We were talking about foul tactics and your imagined "sport mentality."

As I pointed out, foul tactics are a PART of sport. And it's through sport-model training that we develop significant levels of skill.

[HumbleWCGuy]

We're not talking about what "happens to you physically and psychologically on the way to a fight"

That's exactly what I have been talking about. They way that training conditions you to respond is a psychological process.

[t_niehoff]

That's exactly what I have been talking about. They way that training conditions you to respond is a psychological process.

No, it is a psycho-physical process. Your training is both mental and physical to some varying degrees depending on the task/skill.

You seem to think that sport and foul tactics are somehow separate and distinct, or that foul tactics will give you some edge against a sport fighter. No. They are/will not. Foul tactics are a PART of sport, and always have been. Foul tactics are just "extensions" of the "normal" sport skills. But, skilled sport athletes -- in contrast to those who haven't trained sport -- know when they can use them. For example, hitting below the belt. Foul tactic. Do you think they are all accidents? Who do you think can better pull off that foul tactic, the skilled boxer (sport trained) or some guy who believes should he ever get in a fight with a boxer he'll "level the playing field" (your words) with a below the belt shot?