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Thread: Bak Mei stance article - Siu Ting Fun

  1. #1

    Bak Mei stance article - Siu Ting Fun

    I saw this posted on another forum, but no Bak Mei people there so I thought Id bring it over here!


    Ma Bo – Stance
    A detailed analysis about the form and function of stances
    Written by Siu Ting Fun 蕭挺勳 (Xiao Ting Xun)

    The stance, this is the most important fundamental when training kung fu. Each type of hand technique, whether a block or strike, has a different requirement for and from the action of the stance that is somewhat different, and the effects are not alike.

    Many martial artists today work hard to develop a strong firm stance, training it to maintain secure when delivering and receiving force. The stance however is not simply a static posture with stepping transitions; the stance should be lively, with many active functions and purposes. We thus distinguish between sei ma (dead stance) and woot ma (live stance). It is said that a novice will judge your hands, but a master will judge your stance! This is not about styles nor is it about internal vs external, but rather stages of development and ability in kung fu. It is thus the point of this discussion to explain the live characteristics, or “methods of activation” of the static postures.

    The stances utilized in short striking techniques include:

    • ngoi keem yeung ma – outer engaging yang stance
    • loi keem yeung ma – inner engaging yang stance
    • yi ji keem yeung ma – two toe engaging yang stance
    • saam gok keem yeung ma – triangle engaging yang stance
    • diu tai ma – hanging leg stance
    • daan dip ma – single butterfly stance
    • seung dip ma – double butterfly stance
    • etc.

    The focus of this discussion will be on the keem yeung ma which may be translated as “engaging yang stance”. Keem means “to clamp” or “to grip”, and yeung is Cantonese for yang as in yinyang. The meaning of this name and its purpose will be discussed.

    A brief introduction and explanation of the 4 primary stances

    外鉗陽馬 Ngoi Keem Yeung Ma - “outer engaging yang stance”
    Start from the “but ding but baat” stance, which is the name of the static posture prior to activation. In this stance, the lead foot is turned slightly inward, and rear foot is open at 45 degrees, with the body’s weight distributed somewhat equally on both legs. The functional component of this stance comes from actively spiraling both knees outward pushing away from each other, which is accompanied by externally rotating, or opening the kua.

    The spinal structure in this stance maintains a concave chest and convex lumbar with a sunken abdomen. This posture of the torso is known as hum hung but bui suk tou. The “outer engaging yang stance” makes it possible to use the latent force of the legs and the kua due to the active outwardly directed rotation, which triggers the muscles and tendons to engage and build potential.

    內鉗陽馬 Loi Keem Yeung Ma - “inner engaging yang stance”

    Both legs again open taking a proper but ding but baat stance. Here the action and potential is opposite that of the “outer engaging yang stance” as both knees clamp inward, pushing toward each other, which is accompanied by internally rotating, or closing the kua.

    The spinal posture of the “inner engaging yang stance” is opposite that of the “outer engaging yang stance” as the purpose and function is different. The torso remains straight and centered with no inclination to allow the spine to move naturally on the 3 axial planes.

    二趾鉗陽馬 Yi Ji Keem Yeung Ma - “two toe engaging yang stance”
    This stance is formed by spreading both legs open to roughly twice shoulder width. In this posture the first and second toes of each foot grip the ground, gently pulling to activate the tendons of the leg. When the inside of the kua or hip joints activate, it establishes a point of pull, which focuses the direction and further strengthens the traction of the tendons. This stance may be referred to and related to the common “side horse stance”.

    三角鉗陽馬 Saam Gok Keem Yeung Ma - “triangle engaging yang stance”
    This stance is taken by placing both feet on either side of the centerline, then while maintaining the weight over one foot slide the other foot backward into the posture. Once the posture is taken, the ankle joint, knee joint and hip joint extend, straightening the rear leg activating the tendons throughout the length. The lead knee then is turned inward to engage the tendons and activate the kua. It is the tensile strength of the engaged tendons that supports the knee and hip joint that would otherwise be stressed from the torque if the stance were simply passive and relaxed. This stance places a far greater load on the kua, and the difference between this stance and the others is that left and right kua counters each other, a function called twisting the kua. This stance may be referred to and related to the common “bow stance”.

    Conclusion
    Put simply, the “outer engaging yang stance” is concerned with the muscles and fascia of the outer, lateral aspect of the leg. The “inner engaging yang stance” is concerned with the muscles and fascia of the inner, medial aspect of the leg. The “two-toe engaging yang stance” is concerned with the tendons. The “triangle engaging yang stance” is concerned with the bones and joints. Each type of “engaging yang stance” discussed here is activated by a different function of the kua covering all of its 3 variants (i.e., opening, closing, and twisting). Furthermore, each stance plays its role in the development of the bones and tendons of the legs and waist, actively training and transforming them into functional components that don’t simply hold the posture but dynamically activate the posture as well!

    What is keem yeung? It is “the action that gives rise to yang”. Yang (or yeung) here refers to the specific yang components of the human body involved in the stance: the energy of “kidney yang”, “heart yang”, and “liver yang”, the “yang governing vessel”, “yang heel vessel”, and the “greater yang bladder channel”. The training of keem yeung directly involves all of these components. An active focus and training in such manner stimulates the yang channels, causing them to contract. This in turn causes the yin channels to dilate and become unblocked, which brings an equilibrium of yin and yang to the body. Keem, which means “to clamp” or “to grip”, includes the actions of the feet (toes), legs (knees), and hips (kua). These activate the static stance. This action activates the tendons of the posture and engages the yang components of the stance. This is why the stance is called the “engaging yang stance”!

    The concepts and explanations discussed here have been carefully researched from a martial and medical standpoint, and from decades of experience and training. When the actions of the stance are free and flowing, the whole body will initiate and become involved. The fundamental training forms of inspired styles are for the explicit purpose of developing the stance and its potential, as any solid structure is built from the ground up.

    In conclusion, this article merely represents the personal experience and research of a practitioner who hopes that it may be considered by others and found to be beneficial.

    About the author

    Siu Ting Fun was born in 1944 in Mei Zhou City of Guangdong Province. He started learning kung fu at the age of five and spent the next 50 years exploring the depths of martial arts and human physiology to reach a profound understanding. He was well trained in kung fu during his lifetime, studying under many masters and specializing in six styles: Bak Mei, Lung Ying, Lei Ga, Hung Ga, Wing Chun, and Taai Gik. He merged all this with his extensive knowledge of Chinese Medicine and his highly refined methods of “tendon changing" to found his own school of martial arts called Ging Do 勁道, meaning the “way of inner power”. The focus of this school is in developmental methods of internal martial power through the transformation of the bones and tendons. A product of many masters and his own talent Siu Ting Fun was elected by his peers as the Grandmaster of the Bak Mei clan in Guangzhou, where he has been an outstanding representative of the style locally and abroad. He has written technical literature on Bak Mei and related internal aspects, and produced highly competent teachers who continue to share his knowledge and methods today.

  2. #2
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    Hi Soulfist.

    Thanks for that. Is Sui Ting fun still alive? I had heard he was ill several years ago.

    Its funny, I think I have the original poem/story from which that was taken.

    Where did you come across this? Are you hing dai?
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  3. #3
    Siu Ting Fun is alive and well. But several years ago he received a terrible head injury and never fully recovered from it. Hes mentally a little slower Im told. He still performs Bak Mei often but is medically advised to not do anything that might shake his head around, like fajing or partner work, or he might damage his brain!

    My sifu translated that article. He learned from Siu Ting Fun and is one of his few representatives. Siu does perform and maintains his position in the Guangzhou Bak Mei Association, but the teaching is now entirely left to his students. Too bad, hes the best Bak Mei practitioner Ive ever seen but his method never really got spread out of China.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulfist View Post
    Siu Ting Fun is alive and well. But several years ago he received a terrible head injury and never fully recovered from it. Hes mentally a little slower Im told. He still performs Bak Mei often but is medically advised to not do anything that might shake his head around, like fajing or partner work, or he might damage his brain!

    My sifu translated that article. He learned from Siu Ting Fun and is one of his few representatives. Siu does perform and maintains his position in the Guangzhou Bak Mei Association, but the teaching is now entirely left to his students. Too bad, hes the best Bak Mei practitioner Ive ever seen but his method never really got spread out of China.
    That's good news, I will tell my Sifu. Are you in Canada?
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by soulfist View Post
    Siu Ting Fun is alive and well. But several years ago he received a terrible head injury and never fully recovered from it. Hes mentally a little slower Im told. He still performs Bak Mei often but is medically advised to not do anything that might shake his head around, like fajing or partner work, or he might damage his brain!

    My sifu translated that article. He learned from Siu Ting Fun and is one of his few representatives. Siu does perform and maintains his position in the Guangzhou Bak Mei Association, but the teaching is now entirely left to his students. Too bad, hes the best Bak Mei practitioner Ive ever seen but his method never really got spread out of China.
    where can we see some forms... before the injury... and after just cause im curious...

  6. #6
    Yumcha: Siu Ting Fun doesnt have any people in Canada, but there is a faction called Hap Ging Do that is still running there I think. Im in Hong Kong.

    Syn7: I dont know if theres any footage of Siu prior to his injury. Ill visit with him this year and see if he has anything I can get. But shortly his association is planning a new website and will have alot of videos of his representatives showing his methods. Ive never seen others perform Bak Mei in the same manner.

  7. #7
    Siu Ting Fun trains daily with his students and wife in a park in Guangzhou.

    His wife prefers to work daily on hung gar's tiger crane while Siu Ting Fun plays with Bak Mei.

    He is very easy to talk to and willing to teach you anything.

    He explains because he feels there is nothing to withhold.

    Everyone needs time to develope.

    Just because he shares with you doesnt mean you can do what he explained.

    His tendon changing tops many push hand and chi sao chanpions.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by soulfist View Post
    Yumcha: Siu Ting Fun doesnt have any people in Canada, but there is a faction called Hap Ging Do that is still running there I think. Im in Hong Kong.

    Syn7: I dont know if theres any footage of Siu prior to his injury. Ill visit with him this year and see if he has anything I can get. But shortly his association is planning a new website and will have alot of videos of his representatives showing his methods. Ive never seen others perform Bak Mei in the same manner.
    sweet, keep us posted on that website addy... thanx...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by once ronin View Post

    His tendon changing tops many push hand and chi sao chanpions.
    Pak mei and loong ying....

    He and my Sifu grew up together.
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulfist View Post
    Yumcha: Siu Ting Fun doesnt have any people in Canada, but there is a faction called Hap Ging Do that is still running there I think. Im in Hong Kong.

    Syn7: I dont know if theres any footage of Siu prior to his injury. Ill visit with him this year and see if he has anything I can get. But shortly his association is planning a new website and will have alot of videos of his representatives showing his methods. Ive never seen others perform Bak Mei in the same manner.
    Sui Ting Fun used to be a member of Hap Ging Do(?). A lot of the old guys have passed away now, but Hap Ging Do was always a loose collection of all the old guys that were the 5th and 6th generation students in Guangzhou. I don't really know what has become of it, like all these associations, they evolve.

    Hap Ging Do lineage added some forms to the Pak Mei set, I think they have maybe 5 versions of Gau Bo Twi? Kwan Kwok Fai created a couple I know. That early Pak Mei CD is one of his forms.

    They're not the only Pak Mei in Guangzhou, but because it was what it was, everybody was in it even if they weren't 'in' it. It was like the clubhouse from what I gater. The place where the old blokes hung out teaching and drinking tea..
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  11. #11
    Siu Ting Fun was never a member of Hap Ging Do! He started his own school called Ging Do (way of power) in 1970, then his classmate/student Lau Cheun tried to out do him and started his own school called Hap Ging Do (way of combined power) later. Siu taught little forms and just focused on the power, but Lau was a collector of Bak Mei forms and techniques.

    They both learned from a guy called Yau Yan Woh who was a 5th gen and developed the forms further. Sek See Keun became Siu Sek See and Daai Sek See, Gau Bo Tui became Siu Gau Bo Tui and Daai Gau Bo Tui, Mang Fu Cheut Lum becaume Mang Fu Ha San and Mang Fu Kum Yeung, etc. Those forms were pretty good actually, but took the focus off the power development and put it on hand techniques that overcomplicated the style. Lau kept all those in his school, but Siu stayed simple and threw out all the non essentials.

  12. #12
    nice... thanx for all the knowledge... anything else you feel like typing dont feel its wasted coz atleast one person will read it... which is me, ofcourse... where did you guys learn about the guanzhou bak mei history???

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulfist View Post
    Siu Ting Fun was never a member of Hap Ging Do! He started his own school called Ging Do (way of power) in 1970, then his classmate/student Lau Cheun tried to out do him and started his own school called Hap Ging Do (way of combined power) later. Siu taught little forms and just focused on the power, but Lau was a collector of Bak Mei forms and techniques.

    They both learned from a guy called Yau Yan Woh who was a 5th gen and developed the forms further. Sek See Keun became Siu Sek See and Daai Sek See, Gau Bo Tui became Siu Gau Bo Tui and Daai Gau Bo Tui, Mang Fu Cheut Lum becaume Mang Fu Ha San and Mang Fu Kum Yeung, etc. Those forms were pretty good actually, but took the focus off the power development and put it on hand techniques that overcomplicated the style. Lau kept all those in his school, but Siu stayed simple and threw out all the non essentials.
    Ok, I'll take your word for it. Everything you said is pretty much the way I understand it, more or less. I get second hand information.

    Anyway, I believe this is a picture of him. Maybe 10 years ago.

    The way I hear it, Yau Yen Wah was something special, Har Hon Hong, Chun Wai Bok (sp?) who went to Vietnam. They were all hing dai from what I understand. You know much about those days, before the war?
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulfist View Post
    Yumcha: Siu Ting Fun doesnt have any people in Canada, but there is a faction called Hap Ging Do that is still running there I think. Im in Hong Kong.

    Syn7: I dont know if theres any footage of Siu prior to his injury. Ill visit with him this year and see if he has anything I can get. But shortly his association is planning a new website and will have alot of videos of his representatives showing his methods. Ive never seen others perform Bak Mei in the same manner.
    Awesome look forward to any new BM webpage. Can we get pictures of the stances in the article?.

  15. #15
    Nice picture Yumcha! That was taken in 2001 in Guangzhou, my sifu is sitting just out of the frame. The bald guy beside Siu Ting Fun is Lau Keung, his student and vice-president of the Guangzhou Assoc. The guy with his back to the camera is Gong Faat Ming, Siu's most senior disciple. The guy standing is Phillip Wong, a big name in Hong Kong's Bak Mei Assoc. That was a delegation of most of the top Bak Mei masters of Hong Kong going to China to learn more about the roots and see older principles of Bak Mei. My sifu performed on that day infront of them all representing the Guangzhou group.

    I wonder if I have any pictures...

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