Southern Preying Mantis - GM Henry Sue - Oz

[Yum Cha]

i practice bak mei, love it, and i see no reason why i cant use it sportfighting or in the street... if i use it in sparring the way we do for muay thai then its golden...

You can use a subset of Pak Mei in sparring. Anything that involves chi sau, or kau la type entries and traps, you can forget, you can't move the gloves that quickly and tightly. Also, all the forearm work probably seems like elbows to MMA guys, so make sure the rules are clear on that, and of course, all the large joint attacks have to get turned into traps and arm bars, trips, whatever....

And to me, this is the problem. You train to give up some of our best stuff, and the gloves slow you down by more than half. Essentially, you have to compromise the style so much that it becomes an exercise in itself, not the ultimate test.

The best trick I found is to learn to work the stance, regardless of hands first, quick and mobile, solid and balanced. You can put any kind of hand work on that.

How old are you, and have you done a lot of rounds?

[Frost]

Must be true....even with all the rules associated with those sports.

-jo

in the early years of MMA the rules were no eye o throat strikes, guess who was winning all those matches.....

[Frost]

well, then what? Do you actually think that across the board TCMA does not work, and everybody who practices it is totally delusional?
Does that also make jiu-jutsu (not BJJ-which really isn't a complete jj system, but a specialization of ne-waza) Aikido, JMA,Silat,KMA, Kali, etc completely useless?
Are you saying that out of everything, only MMaA a mix of muay thai,. bjj, and boxing, is the only viable technique?

I think things evolve and that because of the lack of fighting (generally) over the last 100 years the evolution of the Chinese styles has not really done this. And this coupled with the emphasis on adding forms, doing this and that specialised breathing or conditioning programme without actually linking it in with sparring has been the general problem.

BJJ has evolved hugely over the last 20 years, you now see wrestling takedowns and boxing hands rather than the foot stomp or the bear hug and trip, like wise sport BJJ has evolved too, you now see the half guard, 50'50 guard x guard etc, where is the evolution in the TMCA, indeed people seem to pride themselves on training exactly like some master did 200 years ago, who was facing a different enemy and a different environment.

People no longer attack down the centre line and trap without clinching, the clinch the takedown the plum the ground are all major parts of fighting now whether people like it or not, and if styles don’t evolve to acknowledge this then what does that say about them? Master of old took things from other styles, hung gar and CLF took lamas wide swinging punches after seeing how effective they were for example, so why cant these styles now evolve?


You mentioned CLF, and no one has a problem with them they are one of the few KF styles you see constantly putting guys into full contact fights, but in those fights what do you see, the core seed movements: Kwa cup etc and I think thats the problem, some styles have moved away from fighting as the core and as a result now practise techniques and sets that dont enhance their ability to fight.

[Yum Cha]

I think things evolve and that because of the lack of fighting (generally) over the last 100 years the evolution of the Chinese styles has not really done this. And this coupled with the emphasis on adding forms, doing this and that specialised breathing or conditioning programme without actually linking it in with sparring has been the general problem.

Well, up until the mid 70's kung fu in China was on the down low.... Used by crims and enforcers mostly. The other major evolution of Kung Fu, which used up a lot of momentum, was Wu Shu..... yipee...

You mentioned CLF, and no one has a problem with them they are one of the few KF styles you see constantly putting guys into full contact fights, but in those fights what do you see, the core seed movements: Kwa cup etc and I think thats the problem, some styles have moved away from fighting as the core and as a result now practise techniques and sets that dont enhance their ability to fight.

I totally agree, and the main reason, to my mind, is the ease in adapting CLF to gloved hand fighting.

[Syn7]

what he said...
well put frost...


i think the people who are the most offended by that reality are the ones that need to hear it the most...


maybe im biased because i actually fought as a youth... made my bones early and learned what not to do early... if youve never been in a fight then you dont know if your stuff works or not... im not trying to be offensive but it sounds rediculous if somebody says they are a great baseball player but theyve only been to the batting cage... never faced a slider, a curve or anything that wasnt str8 down the pipe... its delusional to think you can hit in the bigs, or even against a good mid teenage pitcher... same goes for martial arts... when somebody claims they can fight but never have, i just cant respect that the way they may want to be respected...


that being said, i do have an appreciation for forms... they just arent the end all of fighting training...

[Syn7]

The best trick I found is to learn to work the stance, regardless of hands first, quick and mobile, solid and balanced. You can put any kind of hand work on that.

word, s'all bout the footwork...

what exactly do you mean by rounds???

i hate the 4oz grappling gloves... i'd rather just go raw daddy with just the handwraps... i prefer muay thai style wrap...

[Frost]

Well, up until the mid 70's kung fu in China was on the down low.... Used by crims and enforcers mostly. The other major evolution of Kung Fu, which used up a lot of momentum, was Wu Shu..... yipee....

and BJJ was still being taught in garages in the early 90's and no gi submission grappling was no where untuil the late 90's, MMA was all but dead until the UF series in the 2000's, yet all these are growing and have evolved, why hasn't TCMA

I totally agree, and the main reason, to my mind, is the ease in adapting CLF to gloved hand fighting.

Maybe some styles are easier to use gloves with than others, but this still does not explain why there is so little sparring clips out there of some styles, be it bare handed, small gloved, with full on head guards, or with gloves whilst acknowledging it limits their skill set slightly.

To be honest gloves annoy and limit grappling no end: they limit our sensitivity, and make slapping on a lot of subs harder and make it easier to defend for none grapplers etc but you still see guys sparring with them

[TenTigers]

another issue that has killed TCMA fighting is that when they firts went public, they entered in alot of open tournaments, and fought by their rules-point fighting and kickboxing-even the FJP full-contact Kung-Fu tournaments.
The students who competed, eventually became "Sifus," and what do you think theytaught? They taught hwat they knew, what they did the most. That was the 70's-80's. Several generations later, we have tournaments and fighting where the only thing that resembles Kung-Fu is their t-shirts.
I think the popularity of MMA has opened alot of eyes, but it is still a gradual change. TCMA schools are definately jumping on, albiet it's little by little, and I give it another year or two before CMA in MMA is commonplace.
There will always be the Larper schools, the Kwai Chang Caine schools, the guys wearing Monk's robes doing wu-shu and calling it TCMA, but there will definately be a group of TCMA'ists who step up.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know how I fight? How I learned to fight?
By fighting.
Whether it was kyokushin, MT, boxing, judo, Hung Kune, whatever system, the stsyem never taught me HOW to fight, just what the tools were, the rest was up to me.
I submit that, too many people forget that the "rest is up to them".
And that is the problem.
My SPM sifu said, very plainly that MY SPM would NEVER be like his, just like his son's is not like his.
Mine would always be "tainted" (his word) with ALL that I have done before.
I expressed my concern that it would never be "pure"mantis and he said, " You say that as if it was a a bad thing".
And walked away.
I didn't understand it then, but I understand it now.
I hit people, I hit them as hard as I can and as m any times as I can, until they are not a threat.
That is MY kung fu and it is strong.

[Jorge]

You know how I fight? How I learned to fight?
By fighting.
Whether it was kyokushin, MT, boxing, judo, Hung Kune, whatever system, the stsyem never taught me HOW to fight, just what the tools were, the rest was up to me.
I submit that, too many people forget that the "rest is up to them".
And that is the problem.
My SPM sifu said, very plainly that MY SPM would NEVER be like his, just like his son's is not like his.
Mine would always be "tainted" (his word) with ALL that I have done before.
I expressed my concern that it would never be "pure"mantis and he said, " You say that as if it was a a bad thing".
And walked away.
I didn't understand it then, but I understand it now.
I hit people, I hit them as hard as I can and as m any times as I can, until they are not a threat.
That is MY kung fu and it is strong.

Word to the Mother!! I can definitely relate... Respect!

[punchdrunk]

Ronin's dead on with his statement, and really people who argue style vs style should read his words. that's why I like MMA.. because its not a style its an opportunity that more people should take advantage of.

[TenTigers]

ah, the only reason more CMA guys haven't accepted MMA is because we don't have a cool guy doing it. Bruce Lee was going in that direction, and alot of CMA guys jumped on the JKD bandwagon-not calling their art JKD, but still adopting many of its principles. No different. It's just being well rounded.
So..who volunteers to be the next cool guy?
actually, there's a good handfull right here.

[Yum Cha]

and BJJ was still being taught in garages in the early 90's and no gi submission grappling was no where untuil the late 90's, MMA was all but dead until the UF series in the 2000's, yet all these are growing and have evolved, why hasn't TCMA

Well, what the Gracies have done is unprecedented. I kind of see it as they practicalised an academic art, with the expected salsa flair...or perhaps fire. No, its remarkable. What more can you say?

The game is magic, you can play it as hard as possible, and tap once the result is inevitable. Add the ground and pound - its a new standard.

I think TCMA is evolving, but its a percentages game. Are 10% practical, 20, 30? It will ebb and flow as they split between the wu shu mentality, and the black iron gym mentality, regardless of style. Certainly not leading anything. HOWEVER, the stuff is rich, lots to learn, lots of options, if you get a good teacher.

Maybe some styles are easier to use gloves with than others, but this still does not explain why there is so little sparring clips out there of some styles, be it bare handed, small gloved, with full on head guards, or with gloves whilst acknowledging it limits their skill set slightly.

Speaking for myself and my club at least, we have training videos we won't publish because it does show how we fight. That's part of our gig, surprise.

Does it work? So far results are over the last couple of years, students 3 - Loser A-holes 0, which is minimally reassuring, but reassuring nevertheless.

But, the point you make is a good one, there are no videos because there are no winners to boast about, cept Cung Lee.....

To be honest gloves annoy and limit grappling no end: they limit our sensitivity, and make slapping on a lot of subs harder and make it easier to defend for none grapplers etc but you still see guys sparring with them

Gloves are like Women, can't live with them, can't live without them.

My current thinking is to break down the full into parts. Train the parts under control, and occasionally, put them together and check the result.

This is simply the enabling, that will allow the fighters to come to the fore, and get what they need.

In every school I ever visited, there are only a small core of real fighters, I bet the same is true in an MMA gym too, but granted to a much lesser degree?

We also train more aspects of 'self defence' than fighting. We cover situational awareness, body language, group tactics, multiple attackers, escape strategy and the like.

[Jorge]

another issue that has killed TCMA fighting is that when they firts went public, they entered in alot of open tournaments, and fought by their rules-point fighting and kickboxing-even the FJP full-contact Kung-Fu tournaments.
The students who competed, eventually became "Sifus," and what do you think theytaught? They taught hwat they knew, what they did the most. That was the 70's-80's. Several generations later, we have tournaments and fighting where the only thing that resembles Kung-Fu is their t-shirts.

Word thats so true! One of my boys loved point division, so I went to hold him down once and I couldn't tell who was who.LOLOL Straight out of a Karate kid movie, just less contact!LOLOL Sweep the leg! LOLOL


Ten, did you ever get to go to the Fu Jow Pai tourneys back in the day?

Bless

[TenTigers]

Word thats so true! One of my boys loved point division, so I went to hold him down once and I couldn't tell who was who.LOLOL Straight out of a Karate kid movie, just less contact!LOLOL Sweep the leg! LOLOL


Ten, did you ever get to go to the Fu Jow Pai tourneys back in the day?

Bless

yep. but as I said, everyone fought like kickboxers. Jab, cross, hook, uppercut,front kick, sidekick, roundhouse. They were cool, but it really didn't look any different.