Southern Preying Mantis - GM Henry Sue - Oz

[Jorge]

the argument that street doesn't count, as the people you are fighting are not trained, or skilled doesn't really mean that much to me.
I need to defend myself-period. The average attacker is not a well-conditioned cage fighter, and frankly, at my age, even if I was training hard, I doubt I would fair well against GSP.
The police have shootouts with perps-perps who do not go to the range, do not practice combat shooting, probably don't even know what a modified weaver is, and yet...in my mind, I kinda think that counts, right?
My Martial Arts has never failed me in self-defense encounters. I've been in a few, and I'm still here.
Sure, I would've loved it to look like a Bruce Lee movie,
but Bruce is dead and I'm not, so I win. Nyah!

Get the Fnck outta here! You didn't look like Bruce? How about the Shaw Bros. flicks? If not, then you weren't using Kung Fu. Sorry to tell ya Bro...It had to be some of that Karate you learned when you were younger.LOLOLOL

Bless

[Yum Cha]

so you don’t post videos in case guys you might meet on the street or in a ring see it? I don’t get this secrecy and line of thinking, there are videos of pros on line showing their fights and their sparring matches, i know what they do and their favorite technique, still doesn't mean i have a hope in hell of stopping it when we spar. Seeing the end result is useless without actually going through the process of how you got there, but it does help put people on the right line.

See, its almost like politics. I understand what you are saying, but to me its a different world. I play a part, I don't write the script.

My stuff is all about using training to beat superior opponents/odds. I start from the position that I'm at a disadvantage. I'm full of tricks and traps that once you've seen once, you won't fall for a second time.

I've observed, trained and studied other arts, to understand them, not to perfect them. Most people have no idea what Pak Mei looks like in application, same with SPM.

Both styles are considered 20 second fighters. If you last the first 20 seconds, you can probably beat them.

I started in sport, moved into style. Some start in style, and move into sport. I think it makes a difference.

[Jorge]

Interesting!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdfcx...eature=channel

Bless

[jo]

Though for defense Im more inclined to shoot someone rather than put my hands on them.

So what does that say about all the years you spent "teaching self defense"??????

- jo

[Yum Cha]

@ Jorge, nice vids. Ya reckon any of those blokes ever had to use it on the street?

[Frost]

Full contact? Put some gloves on. No eye gouging, no throat strikes, no temple strikes, no strikes to the back of the head, no kicking to the balls, no kicking to the knees, no kicking when a guy is down????

Thats a sport, not the street.

-jo

no its a set of rules to test yourself under whilst the other guy is doing his best to beat the cr*p out of you under those same rules. You know rules like youyou have in class, unless that is all your training partners are now blind and in wheelchairs from being kicked in the head and gouged

[Jorge]

@ Jorge, nice vids. Ya reckon any of those blokes ever had to use it on the street?

I would think so, as he grew up in the hood and from what I understand, Novell is known in his hood for his hands. I've also heard very good things about Mr. Bey, but I've never had the opportunity to feel his hands. I took a class once with Novell and the dude knows his BaGua. Real cool dude.

[MysteriousPower]

I would think so, as he grew up in the hood and from what I understand, Novell is known in his hood for his hands. I've also heard very good things about Mr. Bey, but I've never had the opportunity to feel his hands. I took a class once with Novell and the dude knows his BaGua. Real cool dude.

Novell has no videos of sparring or of his invisible fight record. He must study spm. All his videos are of him doing forms, teaching, and drilling. Joe Rogan was making fun of him on a YouTube video interview. The fact that you brought him up jus shows that birds of a feather flock together.

[Frost]

See, its almost like politics. I understand what you are saying, but to me its a different world. I play a part, I don't write the script.

My stuff is all about using training to beat superior opponents/odds. I start from the position that I'm at a disadvantage. I'm full of tricks and traps that once you've seen once, you won't fall for a second time.

I've observed, trained and studied other arts, to understand them, not to perfect them. Most people have no idea what Pak Mei looks like in application, same with SPM.

Both styles are considered 20 second fighters. If you last the first 20 seconds, you can probably beat them.

I started in sport, moved into style. Some start in style, and move into sport. I think it makes a difference.

I can respect that, you’re in their school you play by their rules, fair enough but it’s a shame it’s the reason styles die out

Even us sports guys start in bad positions when we train so I can understand where you are coming from, I just disagree with relying on tricks and traps that only work once or twice, I just prefer using things that are more high percentage (just a thought but do you pull these off against your class mates often….because if you can pull them off in sparring against your class mates when they know them as well maybe they aren’t tricks and traps but good technique?)

We all like to be 20 second fighters and I understand the mentality, the hakka arts I have trained and seen are all like this (although I wonder about the legality of all those PE fists to the throat lol), h*ll the thai and wrestlers I know train like this to: Maximum inmapct on the pads in combos, big slams etc its just very hard to end a fight quickly if the other guy doesn’t want you to do that so I have found its best to hope for the best but expect the worst and train accordingly )

[Frost]

I would think so, as he grew up in the hood and from what I understand, Novell is known in his hood for his hands. I've also heard very good things about Mr. Bey, but I've never had the opportunity to feel his hands. I took a class once with Novell and the dude knows his BaGua. Real cool dude.

The problem with these video clips you posted is that fighting does not happen like that, when was the last time you saw someone step in intercept and finish someone in seconds like on that clip whilst the other guy stood there and didn’t respond?

It doesn’t happen, they can talk about the different mentality of street v sport all they want, that doesn’t change the fact that when we see clips of them actually fighting an opponent that’s hitting back all this stuff goes out of the window.

Go look at Novells students xingi sparring clip on the main forum, or maoshans fights, or the man up events….where was the intercept and quick finish in those fights…fact is if you are not used to dealing with someone trying to hit you hard and not cooperating like in those drills several things happen: you cr*p yourself and turn away from the strikes, you back up when getting hit and then respond rather than staying in the pocket and fighting back, and your chin comes up and your hands come down…oh and you start widely swinging for the fences as well because since you aren’t used to real pressure everything goes to pot.

All those things happened in the above clips I talked about.

As for the rules/mentality stuff its largely bull, no one in training actually kills and maims their students so we all train under a set of rules and with a civilised mentality anyway: the choice you make is to either tone down the contact and resistance and do the deadly stuff in simulation, or you remove the deadly stuff increase the resistance and the level of contact (or shock you can do a little of both)

But out of the above which do you think will serve you better when levels of contact and resistance go through the roof and deadly shots can be added in…who will be in a better position to deal with the adreline, the fear and the impact of real strikes?

[Frost]

the argument that street doesn't count, as the people you are fighting are not trained, or skilled doesn't really mean that much to me.
I need to defend myself-period. The average attacker is not a well-conditioned cage fighter, and frankly, at my age, even if I was training hard, I doubt I would fair well against GSP.
The police have shootouts with perps-perps who do not go to the range, do not practice combat shooting, probably don't even know what a modified weaver is, and yet...in my mind, I kinda think that counts, right?
My Martial Arts has never failed me in self-defense encounters. I've been in a few, and I'm still here.
Sure, I would've loved it to look like a Bruce Lee movie,
but Bruce is dead and I'm not, so I win. Nyah!

Who was arguing about the street v the cage? you were moaning about not scoring in semi contact events, I said go have your guys fight full contact it leaves nothing to chance and its hard to not score a technique that you are knocking out the other guy with )

As for the whole street thing I have never said it doesn’t count, don’t think anyone else has either, what we have said is if you test yourself against well trained fighters in a full contact environment, this can be in a cage ring, your school then you are better prepared to meet confrontation than if you aren’t used to being hit and the adreline response you get from facing someone out to hurt you.

And that typically preparing for the lowest common denominator, ie a scrub is not the best way to go about training.

If you train as if you are going to face GSP (even if he would kick your ass) it makes fighting joey big belly with his big wide punches and frat boy tackles a lot easier, now if you train to face joey and you end up facing a D1 wrestler who can also box instead you might be in for a long day…..just saying

[LSWCTN1]

i went to a wing chun seminar in May? in Southampton with some really good people.

one of the key notes that struck me was that EVERYONE likes to think they have knockout power, whilst VERY few ever do.

in this regard, 20 second fighters would be at a distinct disadvantage.. i suggest that if you manage to hit someone cleanly (no interceptions, no obstructions... you hit just hits) and DONT ko them, then you're in trouble. be that in the street or in a ring.

a good mma fight example of this, for me, is Lawler KTFOutta Manhoef with the one shot he had

[sanjuro_ronin]

Full contact? Put some gloves on. No eye gouging, no throat strikes, no temple strikes, no strikes to the back of the head, no kicking to the balls, no kicking to the knees, no kicking when a guy is down????

Thats a sport, not the street.

-jo

That is a tired argument Jo and let me tell you why:
I have fought on the street, in the ring, with no rules, with limited rules and with rules up the yin-yang and in ALL cases guess what?
The best fighter ALWAYS WON.
The guy that was faster, stronger, more intent, more heart and will, won.
REGARDLESS of street or ring ( baring a gun of course).

It never was about Street VS ring, that was an invention of people that could fight well in the ring, the differences between them are KNOW BY ALL.
It was always about testing your skill VS the best and the best fight in the ring.
You don't have to compete forever and always, but at SOME POINT you have to test your **** VS someone that CAN FIGHT FOR REAL, someone that spends as much time, if not more, training to actually fight as YOU do.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i went to a wing chun seminar in May? in Southampton with some really good people.

one of the key notes that struck me was that EVERYONE likes to think they have knockout power, whilst VERY few ever do.

in this regard, 20 second fighters would be at a distinct disadvantage.. i suggest that if you manage to hit someone cleanly (no interceptions, no obstructions... you hit just hits) and DONT ko them, then you're in trouble. be that in the street or in a ring.

a good mma fight example of this, for me, is Lawler KTFOutta Manhoef with the one shot he had

Indeed.
I have a few KO's to my record, in the ring ( Boxing, MT, Kyokushin, etc) and out of it, I have had my strike measured and the impact force was equal to and in some cases greater than the HW I was tested with.
I can say and have been told that I have "KO" power.
YET, I would never assume that I could finish ANYONE with one shot or in 20 seconds, even though I have.
WHy?
Because KO'ong a guy that has never been hit "for real" is NOT the same as TRYING to KO someone that has.

[TenTigers]

Hi Frost, I was actually commenting on what Dale said.
I am in full agreement that the current methods of training,conditioning,sparring will get one most prepared. But-that is in actuality the traditional method of fighting-with the addition of the ground game as it stands. (state of the art and all that)
It's only in the past several generations that people emphasized forms and complacent drills over real conditioning, pad drills, and sparring.

I think that the argument the TCMA makes is that although there is no way to practice specific techniuques full-contact, it does not negate their effectiveness.
The Richard Craniums on the forums like to argue, thinking that these specific techniques/skills are all TCMAists practice and rely on, and nothing else, rather than simply accepting the fact that they are simply tools included in their repitoire.
Of course, there are some TCMAists that go on and on supporting just these claims.
From my experience, at least with the people I hang with, this is not the norm.
My SPM teacher grew up boxing first, then Karate, before training in SPM. He also recognizes the effectiveness of MMA-especially the ground game.

And for all the RC's, here's a newsflash-Hakka Kuen has jabs, hook, uppercuts, and crosses. They also have long hard power.
However, they also posess a specific set of skills that makes them very unique in this area.
It's really nothing to get agitated about, however guys like MP apparantly have been traumatized by a bad TCMA experience, and feel the need to p1ss and moan..
Just as HW108 feels the need to inject his single-minded attacks on all MMAists, or cross training TCMAists.
ok, we get it. Up your meds and get on with your life already.
There just seems to be alot of toxic shock syndrome in MA in general.