Southern Preying Mantis - GM Henry Sue - Oz

[Syn7]

Yea, SPM interests me too, specifically as a comparison to see how they achieve the same results as Pak Mei in a given situation.

Their training is different, yet the hand is so similar....there's something to that...

Your question about the kickboxing/competing.... While it is as ancient as any other combat, and Mui Thai and other hard hitting sports, its popular incarnation is rather new, going back to the Bruce Lee era, when the kickers changed from point to full contact, what sometime in the late 60's? Ramping up a few years, wasn't until the 70's early 80's you'd be banging hard at a common level. 30-40 years...

Its a young man's game too, 20-35 years old....

A good deal of the old school guys circles never intercepted that circle.

Too busy collecting outstanding debts, providing security for 'meetings' and generally controlling turf. Ok, well maybe not all, but you probably understand what I'm getting at.

I think part of this is a generational thing, and part is a cultural thing. I once asked this old Chinese master if he ever had a fight. He smiled, rolled up his arm and showed me where the Japanese shot him...

well yeah, if its combat tested on the street then that could be even better experience than the ring forsure... aslong as its against quality opponents... not just drunk bar scum and bums, u know what i mean??? like the HK triad tested styles are dope, cause they fought against other styles all the time aswell as yopur standard collection rough up... and then theres all the military influence and policing... bak mei is FRESH... but nowadays they must have alot of fruiit on their GM Sue SPM tree branch and you'd think one would compete... but yeah, im interested in the history forsure...

[Syn7]

i also did google searches and whatnot... didnt get much that i didnt get off their site... lots of redundant info and message board bull****... so anyone with any more info, lay it down for me... pretty please...

[Yum Cha]

I'm sure there are SPM trained fighters, Sanjuro comes to mind, but unlike CLF or Pak Hok, when you put gloves on a short power fighter, you might as well cut their hands off.

So, you adjust, accommodate and get on with it. That's why you'll have trouble finding a good SPM fighter in the ring that looks anything different....

There are some Pak Mei sparring vids up that make me cringe when I think people out there think that's what the style looks like...

And when it comes to street work using martial arts, that's who you fight, bums, thieves, drunks, hotheads..... Sure you'll come up against hard men, I'm sure, but that's what cohorts, clubs and tasers are for....

Oh, and good luck finding some vids, if you do, send the links on!

[sanjuro_ronin]

When I was SAW SPM, ( outside of Sifu Paul Whitrods Chow gar) it looked juts like that, matter of fact, it could have been those clips, I don't recall.
I was not impressed.
I had seen it all before, very "american kenpo" like.
The videos that I saw of Sifu Whitrod was NOT like that, you could see the power in his moves, but again, no sparring just "dissecting the corpse" as Bruce Lee used to say.
Then I got first hand exposure to SPM from my Hung Kuen sifu's brother.
It was fast, that;s for sure, but he never hit more then 3-shot combos, they were full force and full bodied strikes, never seen him "tap" or "slap", but then again he never demoed SPM, he always did it "right".
His lineage is from Macao but because of his brothers HK infulence, it has a very different look to it but in all honesty, I have only seen the SPM as we see on youtube and from a few videos that are public and some few that are private.

How well does it work VS MT for example?
Well, to be honest, the biggets problem with SPM is the same with the majority of short hand systems like WC, Bak Mei, Lung Ying and so forth:
Isolated and limited sparring.
Most of these guys never learn how to use their SPM outside of class and tend to develop it in highly specififc ways VS itself, in other words:
SPm guys spend all their time fighting SPM guys and as such are limited in what they have been exposed to.
One of the things my Sifu;s brother loved was how I brought something different to the ball game, he loves testing his students SPM vs my boxing or MT or MMA.
It was a very big eye opening experience for them.
He made quite a few changes accordingly.

[MysteriousPower]

When I was SAW SPM, ( outside of Sifu Paul Whitrods Chow gar) it looked juts like that, matter of fact, it could have been those clips, I don't recall.
I was not impressed.
I had seen it all before, very "american kenpo" like.
The videos that I saw of Sifu Whitrod was NOT like that, you could see the power in his moves, but again, no sparring just "dissecting the corpse" as Bruce Lee used to say.
Then I got first hand exposure to SPM from my Hung Kuen sifu's brother.
It was fast, that;s for sure, but he never hit more then 3-shot combos, they were full force and full bodied strikes, never seen him "tap" or "slap", but then again he never demoed SPM, he always did it "right".
His lineage is from Macao but because of his brothers HK infulence, it has a very different look to it but in all honesty, I have only seen the SPM as we see on youtube and from a few videos that are public and some few that are private.

How well does it work VS MT for example?
Well, to be honest, the biggets problem with SPM is the same with the majority of short hand systems like WC, Bak Mei, Lung Ying and so forth:
Isolated and limited sparring.
Most of these guys never learn how to use their SPM outside of class and tend to develop it in highly specififc ways VS itself, in other words:
SPm guys spend all their time fighting SPM guys and as such are limited in what they have been exposed to.
One of the things my Sifu;s brother loved was how I brought something different to the ball game, he loves testing his students SPM vs my boxing or MT or MMA.
It was a very big eye opening experience for them.
He made quite a few changes accordingly.

Thank God there is someone with common sense on this board! I love you, Sanjuro. The great thing about his posts is that he does not spout the same old, "They are too old to compete but were young enough to be 'enforcers' at gangster meetings, do not spar with people outside their style because they are too deadly, and keep their fighting techniques a secret."

I guess it is easy for some of you to make fun of my posts instead of using them as a window into deficient training methods that do not produce well rounded fighters.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dude, you can't be the extremist when it comes to TCMA or any TMA, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, know what I mean?
TMA have something to offer everyone, each person needs to find out what that is for themselves.
Personally I couldn't care less what someone did in their past or who well they can make their MA work for THEM because they are not ME.
I am me and I NEED to make the MA work for me.
People always forget that.
Who cares if WSL kicked ass with one hand or if Lam Sang could kill a man with his pinky, unless YOU can do that same it is irrelevant.
A good teacher is some one that can take their system and adapt it to their student and HELP the student make it work for himself.
Systems are irrelevant, they are as good or as bad as YOU make them.
I have had the honour of being the demo dummy for many a good TCMA and TJAM teacher and I have felt their speed and power and I say this:
I can count on ONE HAND those that could translate that skill into a "real" fight.

[MysteriousPower]

Dude, you can't be the extremist when it comes to TCMA or any TMA, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, know what I mean?
TMA have something to offer everyone, each person needs to find out what that is for themselves.
Personally I couldn't care less what someone did in their past or who well they can make their MA work for THEM because they are not ME.
I am me and I NEED to make the MA work for me.
People always forget that.
Who cares if WSL kicked ass with one hand or if Lam Sang could kill a man with his pinky, unless YOU can do that same it is irrelevant.
A good teacher is some one that can take their system and adapt it to their student and HELP the student make it work for himself.
Systems are irrelevant, they are as good or as bad as YOU make them.
I have had the honour of being the demo dummy for many a good TCMA and TJAM teacher and I have felt their speed and power and I say this:
I can count on ONE HAND those that could translate that skill into a "real" fight.

Agreed. Everyone needs to find what they are looking for in a martial art. But that person cannot talk about the fighting prowess of said martial art if they are not training that. If you want to do qi gong, exercise, and think it is cool then that is fine. But do not get defensive when someone brings up deficiencies in training and then pretend to be a master killer.

I do not think that many martial arts teachers would be taken seriously if they admitted that they were mostly doing it for: cultural identity, because it is cool and different from MMA, health, self cultivation. So they need to make remarks about the DEADLINESS of past masters, how much more EFFICIENT this training is compared to sparring, and bringing up random aspects of their pasts that suggests that they sparred/fought and still do.

[Syn7]

I do not think that many martial arts teachers would be taken seriously if they admitted that they were mostly doing it for: cultural identity, because it is cool and different from MMA, health, self cultivation. So they need to make remarks about the DEADLINESS of past masters, how much more EFFICIENT this training is compared to sparring, and bringing up random aspects of their pasts that suggests that they sparred/fought and still do.

im willing to bet that 9 out of 10 so called "masters" in north america have not even been in a real street fight with a quality opponent... that combination rush of adrenaline, fear, exitement, unpredictability, not knowing if this cat has friends comming soon or if he has a knife etc etc, that just cant be simulated even in the fullest contact non glove or pads competition...

and i think 1 in 10 is being generous... i'm talking about all styles that claim self defense, so wrestling isnt included, or any other art that is taught specifically as a sport and has no street tactics... like a style that trains specifically within the rules of said sport doesnt count in my numbers...

[Syn7]

at 3:50 of the first vid i posted you see him do a trippin neck crank thang, im sure they have a fancy name like "47 heavens blazing palm cantelope plum sweeping titan face removal technique #174", but anyways. when he steps inside he does this lil kick to the back of the opponents rear leg and then trips... there are so many little hits like that and i love that, BUT are they really effective??? he hasnt any significant power in that kick, even for a demo, and im wondering.....are these guys like purists that dont train or go outside of their school at all when it comes to mantis? im sure they do demos... im asking i guess, do they only train with eachother in mantis style??? i find thats how it is with alot of schools... good schools, good styles... how would it stand to some giant that just came in fist first and 220lbs behind it... it sure is pretty tho... i imagine you would have to be pretty good to overcome any significant brute force type of attack... i would love to see what would happen if a few generations made an offshoot of this style for the ring...??? im not the one to do it, by any means, but you can see the potential... it will be interesting in 30 years when we can look back and see how much its changed over just our own lifetimes... with the whole sport fighting comming back into style in american pop culture with the new fancy "mma" name people are trying new things and comming up with some pretty inovative ways to win cagefights... there are alot of carbon copies out there forsure... but there are some real originals... now that its a sport in our culture i think we'll see alot of MA being adapted for the ring or cage...

[Yum Cha]

... how would it stand to some giant that just came in fist first and 220lbs behind it... it sure is pretty tho... i imagine you would have to be pretty good to overcome any significant brute force type of attack...

I think this is a good point, and quite relevant.

That's why I (100kg) love to train my brothers (60-80kg), by throwing western stuff at them, with escalating levels of contact, depending.

I keep telling them how lucky they are, but they don't seem to appreciate it somehow...

[Syn7]

I think this is a good point, and quite relevant.

That's why I (100kg) love to train my brothers (60-80kg), by throwing western stuff at them, with escalating levels of contact, depending.

I keep telling them how lucky they are, but they don't seem to appreciate it somehow...

Word!

they should kiss your a s s everytime you punch them out... ungrateful lil b a s t a r d s!!!

[jo]

If you look at the techniques shown in the OP's videos, you will see that almost ALL of the head/throat strikes would be ILLEGAL in "competitions".

At least these guys are working at an actual striking distance, and they are getting used to facial contact.

Just sayin'

-jo

[Yum Cha]

Ok, you guys know a little bit about or are interested in short hand styles. Jo commented on getting into striking distance. You always see it demoed statically, with just arms or maybe a bit of shuffling.

The whole secret to making short hand work is stance. Not the holding of a given stance, but the ability to combine it all together into a dynamic moving platform. Footwork.

This is what you never see in the demos. You see they have the weapons, maybe even brutal weapons, but as Sanjuro remarked, can they take them to battle?

Or, maybe a better question is, can they teach you to take them into battle?

[MysteriousPower]

Ok, you guys know a little bit about or are interested in short hand styles. Jo commented on getting into striking distance. You always see it demoed statically, with just arms or maybe a bit of shuffling.

The whole secret to making short hand work is stance. Not the holding of a given stance, but the ability to combine it all together into a dynamic moving platform. Footwork.

This is what you never see in the demos. You see they have the weapons, maybe even brutal weapons, but as Sanjuro remarked, can they take them to battle?

Or, maybe a better question is, can they teach you to take them into battle?

Not possible. Any other questions?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, you guys know a little bit about or are interested in short hand styles. Jo commented on getting into striking distance. You always see it demoed statically, with just arms or maybe a bit of shuffling.

The whole secret to making short hand work is stance. Not the holding of a given stance, but the ability to combine it all together into a dynamic moving platform. Footwork.

This is what you never see in the demos. You see they have the weapons, maybe even brutal weapons, but as Sanjuro remarked, can they take them to battle?

Or, maybe a better question is, can they teach you to take them into battle?

See, here is the thing, when you spend all your time fighting a certain profile of opponent, in the case of most SPM guys it is other spm guys, then you get good at closing in ON THEM, it is the same problem with WC for example.
Stances are irrelevant, they serve a purpose and must be modififed and used accordingly.
Jo Mentioned that the strikes were aimed at all the illegal targets, well, I have no idea what he means because, in a ring match, you pretty much hit where you hit, it lands where it lands.
We've seen neck, throat, back of the head, back of neck, eyes, etc, all getting hit in competition.
Fact is, sure there are rules about WHERE to hit, doesn't change the fact that blows land where they land.
Besides that, if a person can routinely hit specific limited targets in a fight, then when he has MORE options, the better it will be for him.