Southern Preying Mantis - GM Henry Sue - Oz

[Sardinkahnikov]

In my opinion, what stances teach you are the "feeling" you need to get in order to a) use fast footwork and b) be in position to attack or defend. I think that's specially true with styles like Wing Chun, that use "battering ram" kind of punches and kicks. You will certainly need to use a flexible stance, but even then you'll get that "power generation turned on" feeling.

[Yum Cha]

See, here is the thing, when you spend all your time fighting a certain profile of opponent, in the case of most SPM guys it is other spm guys, then you get good at closing in ON THEM, it is the same problem with WC for example.

Yes, the same is true of Pak Mei. You can get used to fighting your own style.
You practice your stuff, and learn how to apply the style first. Once you get to a good enough level, you have to try it against other stuff, preferably the kind of stuff you are going to run into on the street...

I think you have to put on gloves and throw western stuff at your guys if you want them to survive, for sure. But, you also have to make sure they don't revert to brawling, and maintain the path. It has to be trained, it doesn't just happen.

Stances are irrelevant, they serve a purpose and must be modififed and used accordingly.

You and I are going to differ here, superficially, and I know why. Lots of people think of stance as static. I don't, footwork is just a series of transitions between movement and stability, even for a fraction of a second. Stance is the noun, footwork is the verb. I can't speak for every style, but. I love chasing cicadas...

I first noticed watching Ali in slo-mo. Dance like a butterfly, right....can't touch this! You look, he steps in, goes flat-foot, locks and hits, then lifts and moves....in milliseconds. No...footwork is GOD, IMHO.

Its the same as training anything. You take it in steps, deconstruct and reconstruct. Lots of trad guys know how to grab a stance on a gym floor, or how to deliver a combo to an opponent, but where the training lacks is in elevating that training into the ad-lib, dynamic situation of sparring, or other pressure testing. Its not a fault of the style, simply the instruction.

And, the hardest part is learning to use your new lessons, even in the beginning when it is clumsy and unwieldy, instead of reverting to what you've done all along, especially when somebody is ringing your bell....

Jo Mentioned that the strikes were aimed at all the illegal targets, well, I have no idea what he means because, in a ring match, you pretty much hit where you hit, it lands where it lands.
We've seen neck, throat, back of the head, back of neck, eyes, etc, all getting hit in competition.
Fact is, sure there are rules about WHERE to hit, doesn't change the fact that blows land where they land.
Besides that, if a person can routinely hit specific limited targets in a fight, then when he has MORE options, the better it will be for him.

I'll add, target choices are important, but being able to hit them is more important. You end up getting favorites, and growing the list, IMHO. If you can punch the eye, you can gouge it too, if you can arm bar, you can break an elbow, If you can knee the belly, you can knee the groin - first challenge is to hit what you want, then you get to worry about your deadly techniques...

[Yum Cha]

Not possible. Any other questions?

Seen my sig, genius?

[MysteriousPower]

Seen my sig, genius?

I seen your sig. It was a huge stroke to my ego to know that you value my quote so much. Thank you for immortalizing me. Now go eat dim sum.

[Frost]

See, here is the thing, when you spend all your time fighting a certain profile of opponent, in the case of most SPM guys it is other spm guys, then you get good at closing in ON THEM, it is the same problem with WC for example.
Stances are irrelevant, they serve a purpose and must be modififed and used accordingly.
Jo Mentioned that the strikes were aimed at all the illegal targets, well, I have no idea what he means because, in a ring match, you pretty much hit where you hit, it lands where it lands.
We've seen neck, throat, back of the head, back of neck, eyes, etc, all getting hit in competition.
Fact is, sure there are rules about WHERE to hit, doesn't change the fact that blows land where they land.
Besides that, if a person can routinely hit specific limited targets in a fight, then when he has MORE options, the better it will be for him.

Ronin raises some interesting points, especially about the hakka arts being very much designed and tested against other similar arts, I wonder Paul do you think you could have made your SPM work with just your training in hung gar, or do you feel its because of all the fighting you did in your karate/thai and boxing days that enables you to make it work?

I guess my point is I know arts like Bak mei and SPM were often see as finishing arts, indeed I believe CLC would only take students from other arts (I could be wrong) and that a foundation was often needed in a powerful proven fighting art like hungar, choyleefut, mok gar etc so you could understand what you would be facing and have a good foundation and experience in fighting/power generation before training in them.

Do you feel that these days a foundation in a more relevant full contact art that you are likely to actually face: Thai, boxing, kick boxing etc is needed rather than a background in a Chinese art that might not include that much full contact sparring and which these days you are unlikely to actually face in the street?

My personal experience is that the hakka and close range southern arts I know are not used as my primary arts, but added to my core arts when needed. I use them in conjunction with the Thai/grappling I know and only in specific situations, and I can make them work in those situations (close-in in clinch range or as we break from that range) because of my other training and experiences, I can use short range ging, or the pump action of yung ling at that range because my Thai and boxing allows me to close the distance, and my grappling allows me to control that range as I use these moves, but I would love to hear the experience of someone who has competed in various disciplines and trained extensively in both western and eastern arts

[sanjuro_ronin]

You and I are going to differ here, superficially, and I know why. Lots of people think of stance as static. I don't, footwork is just a series of transitions between movement and stability, even for a fraction of a second. Stance is the noun, footwork is the verb. I can't speak for every style, but. I love chasing cicadas...

That is why I said that stances are irrelevant, because to the majority that is what they are,static, so I keep away for using words like stances and rooting and so forth.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ronin raises some interesting points, especially about the hakka arts being very much designed and tested against other similar arts, I wonder Paul do you think you could have made your SPM work with just your training in hung gar, or do you feel its because of all the fighting you did in your karate/thai and boxing days that enables you to make it work?

I guess my point is I know arts like Bak mei and SPM were often see as finishing arts, indeed I believe CLC would only take students from other arts (I could be wrong) and that a foundation was often needed in a powerful proven fighting art like hungar, choyleefut, mok gar etc so you could understand what you would be facing and have a good foundation and experience in fighting/power generation before training in them.

Do you feel that these days a foundation in a more relevant full contact art that you are likely to actually face: Thai, boxing, kick boxing etc is needed rather than a background in a Chinese art that might not include that much full contact sparring and which these days you are unlikely to actually face in the street?

My personal experience is that the hakka and close range southern arts I know are not used as my primary arts, but added to my core arts when needed. I use them in conjunction with the Thai/grappling I know and only in specific situations, and I can make them work in those situations (close-in in clinch range or as we break from that range) because of my other training and experiences, I can use short range ging, or the pump action of yung ling at that range because my Thai and boxing allows me to close the distance, and my grappling allows me to control that range as I use these moves, but I would love to hear the experience of someone who has competed in various disciplines and trained extensively in both western and eastern arts

I probably could h ave made the SPM I was taught work ONLY with the Hung Kuen I knew and I think that, while SPM is a finishing system, it can work as a stand alone PROVIDED it is trained VS other systems and the practioners modify it accordingly.

I have learned to apply the short hand not only in close but from MY typical striking range ( which tends to be closer than most as it is anyways).
I really have to make a video of it, the video explains so much better...

In a nutshell, in boxing we get short power by bring back our elbows and torquing our bodies and, typiclaly, keeping the strike "circular" liek a hook or uppercut.
In SPM we keep the elbows "in front" of the body and that makes it a whole different ball game, but only on the surface.
The body torque is "the same", the difference is that in western boxing the short strikes are PULLED by the torque ( elbow is behind or beside the body) and in SPM the strike is PUSHED by the torque since the elbow is in front.

Not sure if I made it clear...

[Frost]

I probably could h ave made the SPM I was taught work ONLY with the Hung Kuen I knew and I think that, while SPM is a finishing system, it can work as a stand alone PROVIDED it is trained VS other systems and the practioners modify it accordingly.

I have learned to apply the short hand not only in close but from MY typical striking range ( which tends to be closer than most as it is anyways).
I really have to make a video of it, the video explains so much better...

In a nutshell, in boxing we get short power by bring back our elbows and torquing our bodies and, typiclaly, keeping the strike "circular" liek a hook or uppercut.
In SPM we keep the elbows "in front" of the body and that makes it a whole different ball game, but only on the surface.
The body torque is "the same", the difference is that in western boxing the short strikes are PULLED by the torque ( elbow is behind or beside the body) and in SPM the strike is PUSHED by the torque since the elbow is in front.

Not sure if I made it clear...

you made it very clear and and very well thought out

[Jorge]

In a nutshell, in boxing we get short power by bring back our elbows

Then it's not short power, because your elbow is being drawn back. I do understand what you mean though. I agree the only way to make it work is by fighting other styles, but I would say that's true for every style and not just Hakka. You have to learn to train all angles.

Could you please put up a vid. Your last vid on the PE fist was good and informative. Thanks for sharing!

Bless,

Buby

[sanjuro_ronin]

Then it's not short power, because your elbow is being drawn back. I do understand what you mean though. I agree the only way to make it work is by fighting other styles, but I would say that's true for every style and not just Hakka. You have to learn to train all angles.

Could you please put up a vid. Your last vid on the PE fist was good and informative. Thanks for sharing!

Bless,

Buby

Actually, short power - short distance power, is an issueince of force in a limited distance.
See, what many do to demo short power, like BL did too, is pretty much almost extent their arm and make contact or "just contact" enough the target with their fist and then "jerk" the remain extension of their arm into a "short strike".
BUT that is NOT how it works in practical terms.
You don't issue short power that way, semi-extend arms will get you KTFO since you are all open.
Practical application of short power is done with the elbows IN, at our chest or just by them, hand sup guarding our chin AND in the opponents "face".
That is from where you deliver practical short power.
Practical short power comes from/at the beginning of the strike, not the end.

[Syn7]

I probably could h ave made the SPM I was taught work ONLY with the Hung Kuen I knew and I think that, while SPM is a finishing system, it can work as a stand alone PROVIDED it is trained VS other systems and the practioners modify it accordingly.

I have learned to apply the short hand not only in close but from MY typical striking range ( which tends to be closer than most as it is anyways).
I really have to make a video of it, the video explains so much better...

In a nutshell, in boxing we get short power by bring back our elbows and torquing our bodies and, typiclaly, keeping the strike "circular" liek a hook or uppercut.
In SPM we keep the elbows "in front" of the body and that makes it a whole different ball game, but only on the surface.
The body torque is "the same", the difference is that in western boxing the short strikes are PULLED by the torque ( elbow is behind or beside the body) and in SPM the strike is PUSHED by the torque since the elbow is in front.

Not sure if I made it clear...

no doubt... if you dont train against other styles, especially ones that loop from the outside like boxing can, you will be picked apart from the outside and if you came inside on a boxer for the first time with 40 halfpower strikes you will feel the wrath of captain uppercut real fast...

[Frost]

Actually, short power - short distance power, is an issueince of force in a limited distance.
See, what many do to demo short power, like BL did too, is pretty much almost extent their arm and make contact or "just contact" enough the target with their fist and then "jerk" the remain extension of their arm into a "short strike".
BUT that is NOT how it works in practical terms.
You don't issue short power that way, semi-extend arms will get you KTFO since you are all open.
Practical application of short power is done with the elbows IN, at our chest or just by them, hand sup guarding our chin AND in the opponents "face".
That is from where you deliver practical short power.
Practical short power comes from/at the beginning of the strike, not the end.

oh stop making so much sense its annoying

[sanjuro_ronin]

LMAO !!
Thanks, but the video, if I ever get it done, will be better in explaining it.

[TenTigers]

Actually, short power - short distance power, is an issueince of force in a limited distance.
See, what many do to demo short power, like BL did too, is pretty much almost extent their arm and make contact or "just contact" enough the target with their fist and then "jerk" the remain extension of their arm into a "short strike".
BUT that is NOT how it works in practical terms.
You don't issue short power that way, semi-extend arms will get you KTFO since you are all open.
Practical application of short power is done with the elbows IN, at our chest or just by them, hand sup guarding our chin AND in the opponents "face".
That is from where you deliver practical short power.
Practical short power comes from/at the beginning of the strike, not the end.

yes and no. Short power in Hakka Kuen was designed so that the practitioner can strike from wherever his hand happens to be-a neccesity in close fighting. If his hand intercepts a strike, (blocking,covering, whatever)it strikes right from that point-at any angle-elbow up, down, sideways, straight, curved, rising, falling,etc.
The idea is to be able to connect to your body and develop full body power.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yes and no. Short power in Hakka Kuen was designed so that the practitioner can strike from wherever his hand happens to be-a neccesity in close fighting. If his hand intercepts a strike, (blocking,covering, whatever)it strikes right from that point-at any angle-elbow up, down, sideways, straight, curved, rising, falling,etc.
The idea is to be able to connect to your body and develop full body power.

Actually then its not "yes and no", "it yes, but lets not forget.."