Choy Lee Fut Style

[ngokfei]

didn't Pook Dik also study under Leung Gwai (a student of Jeung Hung Sing)?

[JAZA]

Jeong Yim studying with Lee Yau Shan is not true.

[hskwarrior]

It is passed down from our lineage in fut san, specifically by Qian Wei Fang that Jeung Hung Sing's first teacher was Lee Yau San.

how do you know tis isn't true? chan family records of Jeung Hung Sing is very very thin. are you saying this because is wasn't recorded in chan family records?

[CLFNole]

Poon Dik did also study with Leung Kwai. Leung Kwai studied with Jeung Yim and Chan Koon Pak.

[choylee]

Poon Dik did also study with Leung Kwai. Leung Kwai studied with Jeung Yim and Chan Koon Pak.

First Do you confirm that ?
Leung Gui = Leong Gwei = Leung Gwai = Leung Gwai

Thanks

www.kungfu-choyleefut.com

[choylee]

It's updated

www.kungfu-choyleefut.com

[JAZA]

It is passed down from our lineage in fut san, specifically by Qian Wei Fang that Jeung Hung Sing's first teacher was Lee Yau San.

how do you know tis isn't true? chan family records of Jeung Hung Sing is very very thin. are you saying this because is wasn't recorded in chan family records?

I'm not saying that because is wasn't recorded in Chan Family records, I'm saying it's not very plausible because it wasn't part of any tradition, including Fut San until recently. Just when old masters like Hu Yuen Chou passed away all this new information came out.

[hskwarrior]

I got you. however, this is the history of my lineage. There are lots of things that are coming from fut san that were never known before. like jeung hung sing being married and having two kids thats new info. the fact that chan ngau sing's direct bloodline still existed and his great grand daughter is still practicing CLF was never known until 2001.

Although, personally, i find it plausible because Jeung Hung Sing was from Sun Wui and that's where Lee Yau San was teaching. Another thing was, its always been suspected that Jeung Hung Sing had martial arts experience prior to arriving in King Mui in 1836. This would explain why he was able to pick up Chan Heung's gung fu relatively easy.

Until i come across something concrete that can prove other wise, i'd say i'm going to stick to what our elders tell us about the founder of our system (fut san hung sing CLF).

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

You think new information only came out from Futsan, here is a new piece from the Chan Family archive for you, (as far as I can see what is in my hands, quite a few pages were written about Jeung Ah-Yim but the public will never see them - too controversial. Also Jeung never studied with Lee Yau-Shan, otherwise it would have been written down):

Jeung Ah-Yim's father was a stone mason working in Hong Kong when he met Chan Heung (Chan Heung was invited there by the Guangdong Village Association), he was impressed by Chan Heung's skill after he defeated a Russian boxer and wanted his son to study with Chan Heung.

Jeung Ah-Yim's father gave him the nick name Hung Sing (Victorious Hung) 洪勝 very early on and was never used as a CLF branch name like you insisted, because he taught his boy Hung Kuen very young and wanted him to grow up to be a winner with his Kung Fu study.

I can understand you won't believe me because this is written in Chan Yiu-Chi hand writing and not by his father Koon-Pak or by Chan Heung himself (I don't have these records). You are going to say it is just made up by Chan Yiu-Chi.

I'll leave at that.

XJ

BTW, you just turned 43 and I just turned 63, so happy birthday!

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

There you go, when a westerner turned 42, we say in Chinese he turned 43 because we go by the lunar year.

You said Hung is for Hung-men and Chan Yiu-Chi said Hung is for Hung-kuen, it is your words against his and since he is dead, I can only go by his writing, take it or leave it.

XJ

[extrajoseph]

Joseph,

Why would Chan Yiu Chi's version have more weight over the actual lineage?

Hi Frank,

At least I can get hold of a written record from his time (Chan Yiu-Chi 1892-1965), can you get hold of a written record from someone of his position and time (say before 1949) to say otherwise? It is not that long ago.

XJ

[CLFNole]

As much as I love to watch you 2 argue I will offer my 2 cents (not that anyone cares).

It seems to me that by offerring up Jeung Yim having studied with Lee Yau San it gives the appearance of trying to get more on an equal level with Chan Heung. Does Jeung Yim really need that? His kung fu should just speak on its own and no matter what he was Chan Heung's student so that can't me diminished in any why.

My biggest propblem with Jeung Yim having studied with Lee Yau San is this...Lee Yau San is acknowledged with brining in the active footwork to CLF. This is one thing I have always noticed as a difference between Chan style (if you will) and Jeung Yim's Hung Sing. Frank even you yourself have made point of the active footwork. This is in no way trying to say active footwork is better or worse but if in fact Lee Yau San was the source of this it would make sense that if Jeung Yim followed him it would be seen more in his hung sing line.

There are differences in the two lines that is certain; however I personally think that is attributed to lines morphing as they move ****her and ****her from the original source. I would wager that Chan Hueng's and Jeung Yim's kung fu was more close back then than what we see from each side now. That goes for both sides not just one.

As far as the Chan Yiu Chi history I don't what to beat that horse to death but just because he wrote stuff down doesn't make it entirely accurate as I can't completely document the life of my grandfather so I would imagine he would be the same. At the same time at least there is something documented which really can't be said for the hung sing side which lacks documented evidence.

Peace out.

[San Soo Sifu]

There are differences in the two lines that is certain; however I personally think that is attributed to lines morphing as they move f-a-r-t-h-e-r and f-a-r-t-h-e-r from the original source. I would wager that Chan Hueng's and Jeung Yim's kung fu was more close back then than what we see from each side now. That goes for both sides not just one.

Truth. I would say that applies to all branches of CLF; and not just the two being discussed. Things tend to change (or morph, as you put it) over time.

[hskwarrior]

It seems to me that by offerring up Jeung Yim having studied with Lee Yau San it gives the appearance of trying to get more on an equal level with Chan Heung. Does Jeung Yim really need that? His kung fu should just speak on its own and no matter what he was Chan Heung's student so that can't me diminished in any why.

Does he NEED it? how about it just being true? why does it have to be a lie? why isn't it possible? is there anything concrete enough to debunk it? This information didn't come from me, it came from Fut San. Since that is my lineage, its what i'm focusing on.

Jeung Hung Sing was a small child (under the age of 12) when he learned from Lee Yau San, and there's no telling what he learned from him whether it was a little or alot. what is common in the history is that Jeung Hung Sing was thought to have been trained already because he picked up chan heung's gung fu so quickyl. and the whole reason jeung hung sing went to chan heung is because his parents were killed and his uncle couldn't take care of him any longer. anyways, since jeung hung sing was so young i really don't think it should be such an issue.

Now the footwork in the forms are not the same footwork i see in CHOY LEE FUT when it comes to fighting. i have yet to see a chan family member move around in combat like they do in their forms. and who is to say that it was FOOTWORK that Jeung Hung Sing focused on? Lee Gar is far more than just foot work.

There are differences in the two lines that is certain; however I personally think that is attributed to lines morphing as they move ****her and ****her from the original source.

Jeung Hung Sing moved from CHOY LEE FUT's original source in 1841 to learn Fut Gar Kuen.

I would wager that Chan Hueng's and Jeung Yim's kung fu was more close back then than what we see from each side now

what are you basing this on?

At the same time at least there is something documented which really can't be said for the hung sing side which lacks documented evidence.

IF chan heung was able to document whatever he did, then why is Jeung Hung Sing left out of it? Just because Chan Heung didn't document Jeung Hung Sing does that mean the latter didn't exist, have his life, teach his students, fight in the many revolutions he was known to fight in, or even have a legacy today?

people are too busy worrying who is on top, who is trying to blah blah blah. The history of CLF does not make any branch better than the other.

[hskwarrior]

Oh...CLFNOLE......

If you and the entire Lee Koon Hung lineage were wanted criminals whose sentence would be death for sure, would you worry about documenting your history? I would answer no cause they were actually LIVING it till death. being in possession of documents that would lead to your death i highly doubt you would have.

The Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon founder and students were wanted by the police and government for their activities with the Hung Mun and the many revolutions they participated in.

Sorry, recording their own history would be the last thing on their minds IMHO.

Oh, and about the footwork, fut san's primary system is Fut Gar Kuen over Choy Lee Fut and Lee Gar. So thats where our foot work comes from. Not the Lee Gar System.