Wrestling

[SnowDog]

It's not too unusual to think that China never developed a "Ground Fighting" system.

Pre-Gunpower history the Greeks and the Japanese (since the Romans got their ground fighting from the Greeks) are really the only two cultures to develop a ground game. Other grappling systems around the world, from Mongolian, Middle Eastern, Celtic, Norse, Mayan, African, Chinese, etc..... were standing grapling arts that had throws, occasional chokes/ locks and ground and pound type tech. No high level Submission grapling even existed in the rest of the world.

Most ground fighting systems that we know of today are modern systems that actaully borrowed and evolved their techniques from the Greek and Japanese systems (aka: Sambo, Modern Greco-Roman Wressling and BJJ)

And I think eventually we will see influance from these other arts start to filter into CMA

[Syn7]

i wasnt under the understanding you were talking modern times but just over all in historical china...

both... in general i guess... i think its odd that nowhere in such a rich combative history do we see any chinese ground fighting styles... it makes me wonder that maybe there was and they are either lost or such rare fish in the huge chinese ocean that nobody notices them... i know that there are great chinese freestyle wrestlers, grecoroman wrestlers, jj, bjj sambo judo etc. they compete alot outside of china too... i think its something i want to look into, search for a chinese ground fighting style... logically, you would think one exists... martial fanatic + massive population = pretty much everything under the sun... but maybe im wrong, and it was completely overlooked for whatever reason... maybe the get back up mentality was so strong that staying down just seemed dumb at the time... and maybe for them, and who they were fighting, it was... but in this global community, eventually these things will be pulled together in elaborate hybrids, ofcourse there will still always be purests to guard the arts original states...

rant.....

yeah....

[mig]

Very interesting responses and less validation of each one's opinions about superiority of fighting techiques. I guess we are heading towards a question that everyone thought about it but never dared to ask. It is also interesting to see how TCMA monks or practitioners observed animals to learn some of submissions techniques and was not fully developed. It may had developed and then lost in the dust during times of turmoil in ancient China. The closest animal I have watched is the serpent when fights against a prey and the way it will submit its victim, this can be a clue that we humans can do the same way. Also, I found the dog style in China that uses some ground techniques but I need to read more about unless someone can tell us here about its specifics and techniques.

So far thanks to everybody and let's keep searching.

Thanks,

Mig

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very interesting responses and less validation of each one's opinions about superiority of fighting techiques. I guess we are heading towards a question that everyone thought about it but never dared to ask. It is also interesting to see how TCMA monks or practitioners observed animals to learn some of submissions techniques and was not fully developed. It may had developed and then lost in the dust during times of turmoil in ancient China. The closest animal I have watched is the serpent when fights against a prey and the way it will submit its victim, this can be a clue that we humans can do the same way. Also, I found the dog style in China that uses some ground techniques but I need to read more about unless someone can tell us here about its specifics and techniques.

So far thanks to everybody and let's keep searching.

Thanks,

Mig

You know that the whole "monk observes animal makes kung fu style" thing is just stories, right?

[SnowDog]

What little I've seen of Dog Boxing Demos, it looks more like a style that uses a lot of leg traping and locking on a standing opponent to drop them to the ground, more like the techniques in some Silat styles rather than a full fleged ground art like BJJ and Sub Wrestling

[sanjuro_ronin]

What little I've seen of Dog Boxing Demos, it looks more like a style that uses a lot of leg traping and locking on a standing opponent to drop them to the ground, more like the techniques in some Silat styles rather than a full fleged ground art like BJJ and Sub Wrestling

Many of their trips are from silat, good eye.
But you will find most of them in BJJ, Judo, freestyle wrestling, etc.
Only so many ways to sweep, throw, lock and slap ass.

[SnowDog]

You know that the whole "monk observes animal makes kung fu style" thing is just stories, right?

Next you're going to tell me that Bohidarma really didn't cut off his eye-lids and they turned into Green Tea plants.

[SnowDog]

Many of their trips are from silat, good eye.
But you will find most of them in BJJ, Judo, freestyle wrestling, etc.
Only so many ways to sweep, throw, lock and slap ass.

Yeah, it's amazing the more you learn the more you find out it's actually the same stuff just in different wrapping paper.

[Syn7]

next you're going to tell me that bohidarma really didn't cut off his eye-lids and they turned into green tea plants.

blasphemy!!!! Ye shall be hanged dead, devil!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, it's amazing the more you learn the more you find out it's actually the same stuff just in different wrapping paper.

Someone has toe kicked the correct in the prostate and made it his ***** !!

[Syn7]

Yeah, it's amazing the more you learn the more you find out it's actually the same stuff just in different wrapping paper.

in alot of cases, over and over and over and over and over and over and..........



some styles are almost identical to the letter... just have different forms... same techniques tho... lots of family styles change every generation... two bros learn from dad and two bros have different styles to pass on because they have different experiences and personalities... it would take millenia to unravel that ball of twine though... i bet the number of family styles is in the millions...

[YouKnowWho]

Since we are talking about CMA and ground fight, I have to repeat this true story that happened in Taiwan many years ago. This story caused a great amount of tension between SC guys and Judo guys in Taiwan for many years.

Back in the 60th, the Central Police University in Taiwan (it was called Central Police Academy back then) had both 4 years SC course (taught by SC master) and 4 years Judo class (taught by 黄滄浪 Huang Cang Lang). At the end of the 4th year, before the police officers gradualation, there would be a SC and Judo mixed tournament before issued the 1st degree black belt to all students. Since Judo master taught his student the ground skill. But SC master didn't not. Some SC students asked their teacher how to handle the ground situation. The SC master taught them some biting skill. During the tournament, a Judo student got an arm bar on a SC student, the SC student bited on that Judo student's leg. The judo referee stoped that fight and made the SC student disqualified. The SC student said, "I just did exactly what my teacher taught me to do." Both the SC master and the Judo master went to the school principle. Here is that famous history debating:

A: His student bited my student in the ground game.
B: Why did you allow your student to do that?
C: Are we training police officers?
B: Yes! Why?
C: In the street when a criminal put an arm bar on our policer officer on the groud, should our police officer tap so the criminal will let him go free, or should our police officer try everything he can to get out of that situation.

The SC master won that famous historical debating.

[Dragonzbane76]

What little I've seen of Dog Boxing Demos, it looks more like a style that uses a lot of leg traping and locking on a standing opponent to drop them to the ground, more like the techniques in some Silat styles rather than a full fleged ground art like BJJ and Sub Wrestling

from what i've seen I'll agree with you. It's really not grappling though a lot of larpers shout it's chinese grappling. It's not the most i've seen was tripping and swinging leg locks.

[chusauli]

Groundfighting was in China. One just needs to look at Dog Boxing, Fukien Ground Fist, Di Tang Quan, and Qin Na. These were all practiced on the ground while rolling. Even present day Cantonese Southern Fist has some links to the ground - just look at Hung Kuen or CLF. Bak Mei and Lama even have a set called Dae Saat. Not to mention Drunken Fist has many ground maneuvers.

They're not like BJJ, Judo or as specialized as wrestling, but the major moves are there. You can see Kimura, Americana, Jujigatame, Mata Leo, Scissor Sweep, Sacrifice throws, and GNP in Chinese arts.

Somehow, to the fall of the Republic of China, ground fighting has been de-regulated. Chinese, culturally, feel that beating up someone on the ground is in poor taste, and to roll on the ground is also poor taste. You give an opponent a chance to get up. Perhaps Wu De has gone too far, or this is a cultural phenomenon.

[diego]

I think you guys are full of **** let me tell you about the real world:

wrestling is a child's game sport fighters lose their peak after the age of 25 then they retire and buy a gun if they are intelligent.

all this bottom game top game is a crack heads mentality invented by beef cake coke junkies who train hard by using steroids. take away any ufc guys conditioning by smashing his knee and wrists with a hammer and his "technique" will resemble any pansy nonconditioned tma head.

when you are 60 it's all gone you get one strike you better have some sort of point needle in your hand and your footwork better be top notch...this is the essence of Bak mei. mad quick hands something a girl could use against a goliath bully.

everything else martial artists talk about is tv land done by peeps on drugs with great genetics that is not the martial art of self defense.

the real world of fighting riot squad does not gnp no they suit up full armor with shields batons and tear gas when they shut down gang fights in prison.

gung fu is the **** **** and always will be and gangster will tell you anything else is why god invented guns.