Wrestling

[Syn7]

And proper leverage and control and locks that can actually break bones and **** since chi na don't work standing and it certainly don't work on the ground when the leverage is all different...

really??? i dunno, ive seen it being used effectively... there are so many versions and styles that you cant base it all on a few examples... ive seen some pretty advanced chinna using all sorts of great techniques... not a full out ground game, but close to it... just has a huge emphasis on getting back up... whereas something like bjj may choose to stay down and fight from there... but even in bjj for defence, theres a big emphasis on getting up... or atleast on top...

[Frost]

I can only assume you're not aware that armbars, figure-fours, headlocks, chicken wings, full-nelsons, &c. are part of chin na.

Chin na has locks, chokes etc we all know that exactly how useful they are is another matter, but chin na does not have the positions and movment on the ground to make these work in that enviroment

unless that is out of the thousands of kung fu schools out there you are the only one lucky enough to have a proper teacher teaching the real kung fu ground wok....well either that or you are being taken for a ride .........i know where i put my money

[Frost]

really??? i dunno, ive seen it being used effectively... there are so many versions and styles that you cant base it all on a few examples... ive seen some pretty advanced chinna using all sorts of great techniques... not a full out ground game, but close to it... just has a huge emphasis on getting back up... whereas something like bjj may choose to stay down and fight from there... but even in bjj for defence, theres a big emphasis on getting up... or atleast on top...

its hard to pull off any standing lock 1 on 1 not only because of lack of leverage but also because their is too much freedom of movement standing, the only time you see it work is in a situation where its two or more on 1, and limiting his movement that way, or taking the guy down first, limiting his movement and then aplying the move

[ShaolinDan]

Right, I forgot. Sorry. Kung fu might have a jab, but it doesn't know how to use it. Kung fu might have an armbar, but it doesn't know how to use it, and so on... cool, I see what I'm hitting my head against.

[Frost]

Right, I forgot. Sorry. Kung fu might have a jab, but it doesn't know how to use it. Kung fu might have an armbar, but it doesn't know how to use it, and so on... cool, I see what I'm hitting my head against.

ok lets try again, please post any video or a clip of a kung fu student applying an armbar on the ground, it should be easy to find right

Can you please name the kung fu style you do, people on this site hae been looking for a TCMA style that includes ground work for years they would love to know what it is.......................

[ShaolinDan]

Funny, I did a couple of searches (one was "youtube kung fu ground fighting" the other was "youtube kung fu armbar on ground") and was actually surprised how much I found (not tons, mind you, but not nothing). Someone who used to (maybe still does) post on here, IronFist108, even has an armbar on ground video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncE6CfnBnMI

Guess I'm not as lucky as I thought I was.

Maybe you should search yourself...I'm sure you can tell me what's wrong with all these videos...there's always something wrong.

I study Shaolin and eagle claw by the way, my chin na of course is mostly from the eagle claw. And yes, mostly it is from standing (with either a standing or grounded opponent). Mostly, but not always.

[ShaolinDan]

Admittedly this arm bar is on the ground, but not from the ground, but y'know, I posted it because it's from someone from this forum.

[Frost]

Funny, I did a couple of searches (one was "youtube kung fu ground fighting" the other was "youtube kung fu armbar on ground") and was actually surprised how much I found (not tons, mind you, but not nothing). Someone who used to (maybe still does) post on here, IronFist108, even has an armbar on ground video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncE6CfnBnMI

Guess I'm not as lucky as I thought I was.

Maybe you should search yourself...I'm sure you can tell me what's wrong with all these videos...there's always something wrong.

I study Shaolin and eagle claw by the way, my chin na of course is mostly from the eagle claw. And yes, mostly it is from standing (with either a standing or grounded opponent). Mostly, but not always.

at least we have cleared up what you mean by arm bars and fighting on the ground in general. good luck in your training

[ShaolinDan]

I think I was pretty clear on that all the way through this thread. look back, you'll find I say LOTS of things you don't agree with.

Good luck to you too.

[KC Elbows]

Chin na has locks, chokes etc we all know that exactly how useful they are is another matter, but chin na does not have the positions and movment on the ground to make these work in that enviroment

unless that is out of the thousands of kung fu schools out there you are the only one lucky enough to have a proper teacher teaching the real kung fu ground wok....well either that or you are being taken for a ride .........i know where i put my money

The book chin na fa, republished by Tim Cartmell, has old pics of many of those moves. Pics from the thirties maybe, referring to notes given the original author when he was younger.

Whether most schools train it is one thing, but the argument that those moves listed didn't or don't exist at all from the Chinese arts is demonstrably false. Now, the positioning approaches are not in those texts, and we could argue all day why there's such an emphasis in Chinese culture to not going to the ground, but, having been to China, I'm pretty confident that the wisest course there is not to lay on the ground. Anyone who has been there will agree, methinks. There's always a toddler in arseless pants nearby, after all!

[David Jamieson]

Chin Na / Kum Na = "grabs seizing holding"

how does one type of grabbing and seizing work and another not?

lol.

a sleeper qualifies as chin na. but it doesn't work because it has a chinese name?

where the **** are these people coming from? lol

[KC Elbows]

No, nothing too eastern can work. If an ancient greek man hasn't gotten his hands over it like it was an ancient greek boy, it's not practical.

This is why the Romans were so ghey for the Greek culture, and why the Christians were so ghey for roman culture, and us Americans are so ghey for Jerry Brookheimer movies: if we can't be ghey for it, it's just not right.

These Chinese arts, with their emphasis on cultivation, whoever oiled themselves up and went out to grab a man over cultivation?

[Syn7]

at least we have cleared up what you mean by arm bars and fighting on the ground in general. good luck in your training

arm bar is a pretty broad term... my understanding is that an arm bar is any lock where the elbow and/or shoulder is bieng locked... but i wouldnt consider a wrist lock in the arm bar family... not sure what common concensus is... but thats what ive learned... and its been awhile, so i have to go back and read notes from ages ago to be sure about alotta things i was taught... glad i wrote stuff down...
so an omaplatta would be a type of arm bar, technically speaking...

whats your def. of an arm bar? anyone?
quick wiki search:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_bar

An armlock in grappling is a single or double joint lock that hyperextends, hyperflexes or hyperrotates the elbow joint and/or shoulder joint.

opinions, anyone?

BUT, if you said "mr X won by armbar" i would be thinking straight arm bar, legs over torso and head, thumb up hips out... to me thats the most generalized version of an armbar, i think most people are reffering to that when they say arm bar...

[Frost]

Chin Na / Kum Na = "grabs seizing holding"

how does one type of grabbing and seizing work and another not?

lol.

a sleeper qualifies as chin na. but it doesn't work because it has a chinese name?

where the **** are these people coming from? lol

One type of grabbiong and seizing works because it limites the opponents ability to move. This usually means on the ground or against an unmoving obsticale (even this is low percentage hence you dont see many locks int he clinch even up against the cage wall, the oppoent simply has too much freedom of movement.) locking without limiting this movement is very low percentage.

That is why applying locks on the ground is more high percentage than standing locks, and why you can find lots of evidence of these locks working in fights and on youtube on the ground, but not many where both guys are standing or one is stood over the other, this is also why in sparring you hardly if ever pull off standing locks or see them pulled off, byut you see locks working on the ground all the time

Of course if your expereince is different thats great, this is simply mine from my training and looking at fights etc

[KC Elbows]

A huge number of throws that are used a lot begin with locks in order to force motion in a narrower range that transfers into the throw. There is escape from locks, but only in specific directions, which is exactly the situation you want to put someone in so that they are coopted into being thrown.