Wrestling

[David Jamieson]

One type of grabbiong and seizing works because it limites the opponents ability to move. This usually means on the ground or against an unmoving obsticale (even this is low percentage hence you dont see many locks int he clinch even up against the cage wall, the oppoent simply has too much freedom of movement.) locking without limiting this movement is very low percentage.

That is why applying locks on the ground is more high percentage than standing locks, and why you can find lots of evidence of these locks working in fights and on youtube on the ground, but not many where both guys are standing or one is stood over the other, this is also why in sparring you hardly if ever pull off standing locks or see them pulled off, byut you see locks working on the ground all the time

Of course if your expereince is different thats great, this is simply mine from my training and looking at fights etc

uh, chicken wing and various "come alongs" are in essence standing locks.

If it goes somewhere from there, fine, but to the best of my knowledge, standing locks are very popular with cops, jail guards and square badges.

lol so, I dunno, does their experience count? Or are we only talking about ring fight venues here where you have two equal opponents using same/same training regimens and approaching the contact from a particular ruleset?

what about coat drags? underhook and throw? these are all in the chinese martial arts I practice.

I guess the hating will never stop. lol

[diego]

its hard to pull off any standing lock 1 on 1 not only because of lack of leverage but also because their is too much freedom of movement standing, the only time you see it work is in a situation where its two or more on 1, and limiting his movement that way, or taking the guy down first, limiting his movement and then aplying the move

pretty much all the chinna I've seen in kajukenbo and bak mei are used witi footwork..sweeps kicks and stomps **** your sparring pal has no time to tap out on but they work lovely on a drunk as a set up for your iron foot in that azz lol@ twisting a big guys wrist askn for a tap dance.

[Syn7]

submissions can be great ways to get back on your feet too... like using a kimura from the bottom to gain top position... then you can work on standing back up from there... bottom line is, if somebody puts you on your back in a fight, u need to know how to get back up if you dont want to groundfight, but yoou need groundfighting skills to avoid ground fighting sometimes... like using wrestling ability to avoid takedowns and keep it on your feet...

its crazy to say something like "i'll never end up on my back so i dont need to know how to fight from there"...

and besides ground fighting isnt all from the bottom... there is emphasis on top position and standing back up aswell as avoiding takedowns etc etc...

[Frost]

uh, chicken wing and various "come alongs" are in essence standing locks.

If it goes somewhere from there, fine, but to the best of my knowledge, standing locks are very popular with cops, jail guards and square badges.

lol so, I dunno, does their experience count? Or are we only talking about ring fight venues here where you have two equal opponents using same/same training regimens and approaching the contact from a particular ruleset?

what about coat drags? underhook and throw? these are all in the chinese martial arts I practice.

I guess the hating will never stop. lol

you are quite insecure aren't you when it comes to your training.... where am i hating on TCMA,? i said standing locks are low percentage (that includes those seen in GJJ as well as chin na)

My stance has always been unless you outnumber the opponent (as in the case of cops, guards and LEO types) these locks standing are impractical as there is too much freedom of movement, but if you can post lots of clips of 1 on 1 situations where they are used please do so.

What normally happens is that 2 or move cops tackle the guy (usually to the ground) then apply the lock and use it as a come along, that is not how the majority of chin na is practised is it?

[Frost]

pretty much all the chinna I've seen in kajukenbo and bak mei are used witi footwork..sweeps kicks and stomps **** your sparring pal has no time to tap out on but they work lovely on a drunk as a set up for your iron foot in that azz lol@ twisting a big guys wrist askn for a tap dance.

as said before you need to engage your brain before you type

[David Jamieson]

you are quite insecure aren't you when it comes to your training.... where am i hating on TCMA,? i said standing locks are low percentage (that includes those seen in GJJ as well as chin na)

My stance has always been unless you outnumber the opponent (as in the case of cops, guards and LEO types) these locks standing are impractical as there is too much freedom of movement, but if you can post lots of clips of 1 on 1 situations where they are used please do so.

What normally happens is that 2 or move cops tackle the guy (usually to the ground) then apply the lock and use it as a come along, that is not how the majority of chin na is practised is it?

not at all. I am responding to your statements about standing locks being questionable and saying rather clearly that they are not what you describe them to be.

It seems that you understand wrestling and how to put a lock on there and it also seems that that is where you are comfortable.

anyway, try not to get all passive aggressive and making statements about whether or not something does or does not work. In regards to leos, guards and square badges, you are wrong. I've trained with guys and have trained guys who have done these things solo, so my experience is different than yours. That's all.

I don't see how that makes me insecure in my training. lol I'm perfectly happy with it!

your stance will always be what it's going to be, but that doesn't diminish anyone else's experience or point of view one iota.

are you insecure about that? lol

[YouKnowWho]

i said standing locks are low percentage...

There is no such thing as "standing lock". All locks will go to the ground. If you let your opponent to stand on his feet, he will have too many different ways to counter you. This is the major difference between CMA and BJJ. CMA will use the lock to take your opponent down. BJJ will drag you down and then apply lock on you.

http://johnswang.com/Human_Disassembly.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Bronco_Busting.wmv
http://johnswang.com/DevilsHandcuff.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Kneeling_Hold.wmv

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/3905/chang5.jpg
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9972/chang1.jpg
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4378/chang2.jpg
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/9092/chang3.jpg
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/9844/chang4.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

In regards to leos, guards and square badges, you are wrong. I've trained with guys and have trained guys who have done these things solo, so my experience is different than yours. That's all.

In all honesty i have to agree with Frost, when going into CJ you are almost always taught from day one, never do it alone. I have seen people do standing locks (cops, CO's, etc.) alone but most of the time when alone you wait for backup, stall, pepper spray, stun gun etc. In doing the standing lock you are just asking for trouble, and most Officers will take the person down and then apply the locks, lot more JJ/BJJ today in the law inforcement than yester years.

[tiaji1983]

Uhmm. TCMA does have ground fighting. Any Qinna you can do standing, you can do on the ground. You can grab the groin, eye gouge, pinch, punch, kick, etc on the ground. Every TCMA has Punches, kicks, Qinna, and Shuai Jiao. Aikido came from Bagua, Jiujitsu came from Qinna, etc, and they all came from Shaolin. of course there were other arts before Shaolin, but its all there. If you dont see grappling and ground fighting in TCMA, then you dont see the truth. Only TCMA would rather not go to the ground because its designed for multiple opponents.

[Frost]

Uhmm. TCMA does have ground fighting. Any Qinna you can do standing, you can do on the ground. You can grab the groin, eye gouge, pinch, punch, kick, etc on the ground. Every TCMA has Punches, kicks, Qinna, and Shuai Jiao. Aikido came from Bagua, Jiujitsu came from Qinna, etc, and they all came from Shaolin. of course there were other arts before Shaolin, but its all there. If you dont see grappling and ground fighting in TCMA, then you dont see the truth. Only TCMA would rather not go to the ground because its designed for multiple opponents.

no you cant do it doesnt and no they didnt, and finally really well if you say so

The logistics of applying locks either standiong and on the ground is differnt, how you imobalize the joint, move around the opponent and pin him changes once you hit the ground, if it did not chinese artists would not have to learn BJJ in order to be good on the ground, and they do.... every single chinese stylist competing in MMA does BJJ/Sambo.. If you dont understand the princiles of hiarchy of movement, how to escape bad positions and improve to a better position, how ro move your hips and create space you will not be able to hit bite, kick pinch or do anything else other than scream and tap

Aikido did not come from bagua, the founder did spend time in china but there is no proof he learned any bagua but he did study akai styles though, the history of jujistsu likewise has no documented link to chinese arts, and the whole shaolin thing is a myth busted wide open by the likes of adam Hsu and other scholars please stop believeing the pulp fiction novels and the water margin novels and taking them for actual factual documents.

i think its you thats missing the truth here sorry

[Dragonzbane76]

Every TCMA has Punches, kicks, Qinna, and Shuai Jiao.

in all honesty shuai jiao is not a ground oriented style. More oriented towards clinch.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have YET to see ONE TCMA that is a "ground grappling" system along the lines of BJJ or Judo or Sambo, much less submission grappling.

[Frost]

I have YET to see ONE TCMA that is a "ground grappling" system along the lines of BJJ or Judo or Sambo, much less submission grappling.

thats because you have not seen the real TCMA

[sanjuro_ronin]

thats because you have not seen the real TCMA

That's because that slippery sucker is hiding !!
Freaking ninjas !

[Dragonzbane76]

what if I told you it didn't exist? Like santa clause? would that upset you? Did I just take your childhood into my hand and squeeze it till all hopes and dreams were shattered? Crippling you like a three legged dog.

False hope is ok though... it gives us all something to look forward to.