Wrestling

[YouKnowWho]

how come mma doesnt allow groin kicks like pankration. how come mma doesnt fight nekid and rub oil on themself like pankration. in real street fight everyone fights naked and rub oil on themselvs.

Good point! Also how come MMA doesn't allow this?

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6302/spikesringk.jpg

[Kansuke]

i was thinking the same thing... where i come from the honourable types usually got hurt in the street... its not about being fair.... its about winning and walkijng away...

even if that means you pick up a rock and go choy li fut on their a s s e s!!!

Nothing "honorable" about being stupid.

[David Jamieson]

Only on halloween, or Anniversary night with the wife.

Dude, I am Batman....

[Kansuke]

I know that in Japan, lying down on the ground used to be a way to AVOID fighting. If someone got all up in your face, lying down on the ground was a way to submit without fighting (this is more common among older folks, not sure how it is with young folks these days being so anti-cultural and with Sport MAs being so popular.)
.

Say wha....?

[Syn7]

Nothing "honorable" about being stupid.

yeah... what he said...

[Syn7]

I believe the "ground game" will be the true killer for all stand up throwing arts. Whether I'm right or wrong, only the history will tell.

ok... we'll see... i think we'll see more well rounded styles come out... i also believe that the chinese boxers will start adding these to their repetoire and once its well established in cma they will start doing it "their way"... like the japanese did... and look how well that worked out for them... and its all based on chinese theory and application anyways... i think cma just got stuck, stylistically, in a standup paradox... they stood wiyth eachother and didnt do much groundwork offensively so nobody bothered to learn it defensively... does that make sense??? why dont we see much cma in mma??? im glad thats changing... it'll be awesome to see what kind of chinese hybrids come out of all this, now that they have their own mma organizations and whatnot...

remember what happened to all these japanese standup fighters in brazil 50-70 years ago??? the jujutsu cats did well, the judo cats did well, the karate guys got beat up on the ground almost every time... check out the vids on youtube... there are a few... avoid anything gracie, they are so biased its disgusting how skewed the picture they paint is... but that doesnt mean they dont have a point... but there are others... lutta livre was huge too... the whole bjj vs lutta livre was awesome for grappling... alot was learned and accomplished then...

i still dont understand why you cant do both... you can keep them seperate or meld them together... like i said before, i feel one should learn the art in its pure form at first but once you are good at it and understand all the theory really well, i dont see any reason why you cant bring it all together...

i feel that the more weapons in ur arsenal the better...

like if i have a handgun and want a granade you cant say, dont play with grenades or your handgun skills will suffer... sounds kinda silly doncha think???

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Say wha....?

I'm looking for the reference... I'm remembering some Desmond Morris special or something. When I find it I'll post it.

[YouKnowWho]

i still dont understand why you cant do both???

Let me try to use an example here. If you apply a "fireman's carry" on me, You will have 2 choices. You can:

1. Throw me with you feet together and legs straight, so you can dump me from a maximum height with maximum force.

2. Drop one of your knees on the ground while bending the other leg, so your body will be closer to the ground. This will be easier for you to continue your ground game.

Since in the sport environment, the soft mat won't be able to hurt your opponent enough to end a fight, you will lose confidence in "perfect throw (maximum height and maximum force)", and stop your training by using the 1st method. The will change the future of the stand up throwing art.

[Dragonzbane76]

Since in the sport environment, the soft mat won't be able to hurt your opponent enough to end a fight, you will lose confidence in "perfect throw (maximum height and maximum force)", and stop your training by using the 1st method. The will change the future of the stand up throwing art.

they have been saying this kinda thing forever about a lot of different "sport" fighting. when MMA came out they stated that it will be the end of boxing because there will be no use, now mma people cross train into boxing and kickboxing all the time to round there game. No worries people will always have use for a good throw and it will be integrated along with everything else.

[Syn7]

Let me try to use an example here. If you apply a "fireman's carry" on me, You will have 2 choices. You can:

1. Throw me with you feet together and legs straight, so you can dump me from a maximum height with maximum force.

2. Drop one of your knees on the ground while bending the other leg, so your body will be closer to the ground. This will be easier for you to continue your ground game.

Since in the sport environment, the soft mat won't be able to hurt your opponent enough to end a fight, you will lose confidence in "perfect throw (maximum height and maximum force)", and stop your training by using the 1st method. The will change the future of the stand up throwing art.

sure... but who says i have to employ the firemans carry??? there are other options if i dont wanna go down with ya... doesnt mean the firemans carry is useless... just means its not always the best choice... but that goes for almost any technique... esspecially ones that you have to commit to... but that example doesnt fly for me... why does one technique have to affect another technique when they dont have to be used together??? im not agreeing with your argument here... if i dont wanna go down i can just throw you another way... depends what you give me and what i want to do next... and besides, i could always dump you on your head and back off when your brains spill out onto the concrete... no???

[Syn7]

more applicable knowledge = better... always... offensively and esspecially defensively... if two guys do choylifut and are both at the same level but one also knows how to wrestle and submitt and throw etc... which one has a better chance of winning a real fight??? to me, the answer is obvious... most of the time the guy with more fighting abilities will win... like the couture toney fight... toney was a great boxer... look how well that worked out for him on saturday against a guy that isnt that good of a striker...

[YouKnowWho]

more applicable knowledge = better.

Agree with you 100% there. May be it's just stupid for me to worry about the future. I may not live long enough to see that happen anyway.

Just saw this clip. Someone may share similiar concern here (in a different way at least). Any comment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhOmAyjTimc

[Syn7]

it illustrates the need to train in an art that will teach techniques that fall outside of the rules in the sporting versions... if all you train is the techniques allowed in regulated competition then you cant claim to be teaching a complete system that is street effective... or as street effective as it could be, i should say... since the throws within the rules are still very effective... i dont train any pure sporting arts... although we do have classes dedicated to either or...

edit:

actually thats not true... in highschool we didnt train street wrestling... although we did play WWF and throw chairs at eachother and did flying randy savage elbow drops off the bleachers

[Kansuke]

Let me try to use an example here. If you apply a "fireman's carry" on me, You will have 2 choices. You can:

1. Throw me with you feet together and legs straight, so you can dump me from a maximum height with maximum force.

2. Drop one of your knees on the ground while bending the other leg, so your body will be closer to the ground. This will be easier for you to continue your ground game.

Since in the sport environment, the soft mat won't be able to hurt your opponent enough to end a fight, you will lose confidence in "perfect throw (maximum height and maximum force)", and stop your training by using the 1st method. The will change the future of the stand up throwing art.

Street or mat, the first is simply much less likely to be pulled off. If you want to hurt someone, a firemans is not going to be your first choice.

[Frost]

Judo has "ippon" and also rules against just "dragging a person to the mat", this encourages the throw. The more current rules also discourage the mat work

Sambo has similar format, including "total victory" throw

Greco's above the waist format encourages a certain style, so does free style's format

The reality is, just do BJJ and you will not be a good thrower. The good throwers in BJJ cross train in Judo and wrestling.

THe Judoka with good mat work, will cross train BJJ.

This is the "problem" with doing only one type of competition

The average MMA fighter has weak standing striking. The average Muay Thai guy has no wrestling base.

If you want to "win your sport" you stick to your sport and it's format. If you want to be "well rounded FIGHTER" you cross train and do many formats

true and none of that changes the fact certain styles have managed to incorperate groundwork without losing the importance of the throw, so it can be done and has been done