Wrestling

[Frost]

All right, I guess I've got more information than I needed, LOL. For what I see I was not clear with my question. In every street fight I've seen or experienced ground fighting can happen and if you encountered someone with some experience in throws, joint locking techniques, choking techniques, submission, etc, on the ground the answer of avoiding the ground fighting is irrelevant.
Now, I can not find an explanation why there is no such ground fighting style as Jujitsu or wrestling in China even though it seems that some Jujitsu styles claim their origins from China and others possibly from Horn Wrestling. As you see I am curious to find some historical sources and if any style in today's TCM will have a repertoire of such techniques.

Thanks all,

Mig

Alot of the japanese grappling game from fighting with heavy armour, i dont know if the chinese had the same armour and issues, as far as anyone has ever posted and i have seen no chinese style has ground fighting, they have ground defense against a standing opponent but not ground fighting in terms of positional control, locks chokes etc

It might very well be because they never faced a ground fighter due to cultural bias against rolling around on the ground etc, unfortunatly this is no longer the case, you are more likely to face a ground fighter than a stand up fighter these days

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to grappling in Japan, itstarted with armour grappling, Kumi Uchi, in which the goal was to imobilize and finish with a short dagger or break a limb or neck.
After the 1800's the civilian version "took over" and it became more oriented towards the clothes of the time and not armour, it was typically used for restraining more than anythign else.
Some Ryu developed immobilizations to a high degree, some using ropes/belts.
The kito ryu focused on throws and some, liek the Fusen ryu focused on ground grappling, while others like the Tenjin Shinyo ryu focused on chokes, immobilizations and strikes.
Judo took the best of the older ryu and blended them in, well Judo.
The pre-war version, know as Kosen Ryu nowadays was more ground work and submission oriented.
The whole "wrestling" thing as we find in the near east and west was NOT that popular, unless you count sumo.
Sumai, the MA of the SUmo, was the closest we have the western wrestling in Japan and it was a very complete system of stand up grappling and throwing, but no ground work per say.

[lkfmdc]

true and none of that changes the fact certain styles have managed to incorperate groundwork without losing the importance of the throw, so it can be done and has been done

so which art has good throws AND ground work on the level of BJJ?

or which ground focused art has throws as good as Judo and Sambo?

Emphasis on one always means a trade off with the other....

[Syn7]

its interesting... you would think that kids would mess around and fall on eachother and "wrestle" at some point in china... its seems like such a natural thing... it seems so weird that a nation so big with such a rich combative history would never have seen kids messing around and made a system out of it... or lets say it in a way chinese understand, why didnt they see animals rolling, like lizards locked in a clutch flopping around and got the idea to wrestle... it seems really weird to me that it never happened... so i think it did... im willing to bet, that like many things, it was just lost because something more popular pushed it out of view... i bet with some research somebody would find something...

it stands to reason that wrestling would have been the "first" style with some cavemen that just run at eachother, smash into eachother, fell over and grappled on the ground... i dunno... something just isnt adding up here tho... with a fighting culture that is absolutely OBDSESSED with finding new fight scenarios to tackle(no pun intended) you would think there would be something more than what we see today in modern chinese styles... that isnt a small missing link, its a huge oversight... i guess its time for me to start reading up...

[Xiao3 Meng4]

that isnt a small missing link, its a huge oversight... i guess its time for me to start reading up...

Something else to consider is multiple opponents. By which I mean Russian Gang Fight numbers or more (much more.)

Imagine going to the ground in a melee like that. You'd get trampled - no martial skill involved.

If Battles between rival factions were of that nature, what good did groundwork do? In a melee situation it was much better to know how to chuck your opponent to the ground and stay standing; let the feet and hooves and chariot wheels of your allies AND enemies do all the work. Not to mention the occasional spear or knife thrust here and there. If it didn't kill the poor sap, it might injure him severely. If he wasn't injured, he'd have to get up; in the meantime, your bad@ss standup and throwing skills will hopefully have sent several others to their muddy fate.

So yeah, there may have been good reasons (attached to or beyond cultural norms) as to why groundwork wasn't emphasized.

[Syn7]

yeah but not even as a competition between classmates that evolved into something more serious??? its kinda weird that you dont see it at all...

[Lucas]

i think there are many factors. the mongolian influence in china, heavy on wrestling, did a lot to help shape shuai jiao. also if you train in MA you learn weapons, a downed opponent is easy prey for a sword or spear. then take into account that if someone were to try and wrestle a trained kungfu guy, unless you were good (which would be a rare skill set since its uncommon in most areas) you would get worked over by standard kungfu guy. which would make the standard 'appear' supperior to someone trying to tackle you down out of sheer aggression and aggrivation.

some random person wont have mad skill, and if they have some skill its likely going to be obtained from a local source, which would likely offer something of the regional standard. gang fights are far more common than 1 on 1 duels. also, knives are very popular.

[Syn7]

i think there are many factors. the mongolian influence in china, heavy on wrestling, did a lot to help shape shuai jiao. also if you train in MA you learn weapons, a downed opponent is easy prey for a sword or spear. then take into account that if someone were to try and wrestle a trained kungfu guy, unless you were good (which would be a rare skill set since its uncommon in most areas) you would get worked over by standard kungfu guy. which would make the standard 'appear' supperior to someone trying to tackle you down out of sheer aggression and aggrivation.

some random person wont have mad skill, and if they have some skill its likely going to be obtained from a local source, which would likely offer something of the regional standard. gang fights are far more common than 1 on 1 duels. also, knives are very popular.

soldiers train ground fighting... kinda blows a hole in the whole "dont forget cma trains weapons too" theory dont ya think???


also i think a college wrestler with a thick skull and a little bit of street experience woulndt have any problem taking down any standup fighter with no grappling experience... you'd have to ko or lock em up before he got into full swing if you'd want to stop it... and in a life or death situation groin shots and eye strikes might not be enough... combine cma with real grappling and ground fighting knowledge and i think you'll have a killing machine...

[Dragonzbane76]

combine cma with real grappling and ground fighting knowledge and i think you'll have a killing machine...

said it all along.

[Syn7]

so which art has good throws AND ground work on the level of BJJ?

or which ground focused art has throws as good as Judo and Sambo?

Emphasis on one always means a trade off with the other....

i guess sambo would be the closest i can think of... probably because its pretty new and is heavily influenced by military... sambo strikes, throws, and has ground fighting...

[Lucas]

soldiers train ground fighting... kinda blows a hole in the whole "dont forget cma trains weapons too" theory dont ya think???


also i think a college wrestler with a thick skull and a little bit of street experience woulndt have any problem taking down any standup fighter with no grappling experience... you'd have to ko or lock em up before he got into full swing if you'd want to stop it... and in a life or death situation groin shots and eye strikes might not be enough... combine cma with real grappling and ground fighting knowledge and i think you'll have a killing machine...

well im speaking from a historical progression angle as to why over all these hundreds of years high end ground submission grappling didnt seem to appear in chinese martial arts. not modern times......... today there is ground fighting throughout the entire world. the ground element, speaking from a modern perspectice, is a given. doesnt even need to be mentioned in regard to effectiveness and adaptabitlity to create a well rounded fighter. nor the pros and cons of striking vs grappling, that subject is worse off than a dead horse.

[Syn7]

well im speaking from a historical progression angle as to why over all these hundreds of years high end ground submission grappling didnt seem to appear in chinese martial arts. not modern times......... today there is ground fighting throughout the entire world.

are there any new ground fighting styles that are chinese?

[Lucas]

it could easily be argued if sambo is of the level on the ground as bjj....

[Lucas]

are there any new ground fighting styles that are chinese?

no but many, many, chinese stylists are adding ground fighting to their training regime.

anyway i dont get what that question means?? who mentioned any chinese ground fighting/submission styles??!?! i thought we all knew there arent any distinctly chinese

[Lucas]

soldiers train ground fighting... kinda blows a hole in the whole "dont forget cma trains weapons too" theory dont ya think???

sry i need to learn the quote function better. i posted more in response to this:

its interesting... you would think that kids would mess around and fall on eachother and "wrestle" at some point in china... its seems like such a natural thing....

i wasnt under the understanding you were talking modern times but just over all in historical china...