Push hands - what are the ins-n-outs?

[Yum Cha]

Anybody here know much about playing Push Hands?

I guess it comes from Tai Chi? There is a practice and a competition format?

What exactly are the rules? Can you pull as well as push?

thanks

[omarthefish]

What exactly are the rules? Can you pull as well as push?

lol. If you couldn't pull it would be a pretty stupid "game".

No real set rules. There's sort of a loose format but the only time there are specific rules is for competitions. As a training exercise the "rules" such as they are are kind of unwritten.

The most simple form is single hand which is where you and your partner just touch at the wrists and describe a circle in the air. Whenever you think the other person is vulnerable you can try to push them in the chest or pull them past behind you or otherwise throw then off balance. IMO, single hand push is actually the highest level of training. It's considered the most introductory because of its simplicity but I find that because the format is so limited, it really highlights some very taiji specific skills. When you go to the 2 hand or even freestyle format, it looks a lot more "fighty" but it also allows you to rely more on stuff that has nothing to do with Taijiquan.

Here's some pretty good looking single hand pushing:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTIyOTk0MjQ=.html
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/14430209-1331519420.html


2 hand pushing:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/14426517-1331519420.html

In this pattern, you have more to work with than just relaxation, roundness and redirection. You need to learn to habitually check your opponents elbow and wrist and the door is opened up for all sorts of throws and arm-locks. People add different footwork patterns and variations until you get something that looks like it would be at home in any MMA gym:

Chen Bing teaching freestyle suitable for cage fighting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

Here's a pretty nice step-by-step breakdown of many of the moves in a more formal way. The guy in the cage, Chen Bing, is using almost entirely stuff learned initially in a style sort of like this clip which features his own teacher (and family relation too) Chen Xiaowang:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODUxMTg4NTI=.html

[wiz cool c]

Yeah I can answer for you. Push hands comes from Tai Chi yes, there are patterns, with set movements that teach you to stick and listen and nutrilize and some other skills that are specific to tai chi, Then there is free style, which might come to a surprise that alot of tai chi an internal practioners don't even practice. This comes in the form of fixed step, restricted step and moving push hands.

In fixed step you take a stance and can't move you feet. if a play makes you move or lose your balance he got you, ristricted step is the same ,but you can do one shuffle step foward and one shuffle step backward, In a tournament, they have this format, i have done 3 of this kind,and 1 minute each side left and right, with time out for point calling, a match takes about 4 minutes, her is me doing this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibKCMtayZM . you can't grab in push hands, you can kind of cup the hand without using the thumb or use a thumb index open finger control,but no closed finger grabs.

Moving is like sumo match. also no grabbing. It is very strenuous to play this game, and I once tore ligaments in my knee doing this kind of pushing in a tournament. The short comming are, you can't grab, usally can't sweep or throw. To be honest since I got into Judo and shuai jiao, i have pretty much given up push hand, why restrict yourself in such a way. I like being able to say put on a jacket an go do what you can to get me down. Not teach don't do this, stop when you do this. do only this.

[omarthefish]

The short comming are, you can't grab, usally can't sweep or throw. To be honest since I got into Judo and shuai jiao, i have pretty much given up push hand, why restrict yourself in such a way.

That is a totally western phenomenon.

Check out the link I posted above of Chen Bing teaching freestyle push hands to what look like MMA students.

Or check out this fairly tame comp in China:
http://v.ku6.com/show/OjedUm000-PeN2K7.html

In China the rules are usually just that you can't grab (as you described) buy you can hook. You usually can't hook the neck or use your hands to hook the legs but legs attacking legs have been in almost every comp I've watched. In Chinese push hands comps, thowing and sweeping are as common as rice is at the lunch table.

[wiz cool c]

[QUOTE=omarthefish;1036707]That is a totally western phenomenon.

intersting, cause i have been living and training in china for over 4 years now

[lkfmdc]

Have friends VERY into push hands, and the rules range widely from event to event. In fact, in helping them get ready it's a major pain

[omarthefish]

That is a totally western phenomenon.

intersting, cause i have been living and training in china for over 4 years now

I guess our experiences just differ. I've been living and training in China for 10 years now.

I guess coach Ross summed it up best. Event vary wildly which is why I initially posted that:

No real set rules. There's sort of a loose format but the only time there are specific rules is for competitions.

I've never seen fixed step competition over here. Just seen it on youtube. Most of what I have seen looked little different from Shuai Jiao competitions.

In my training with Shifu almost everything goes. Sweeps, throws, hooking the legs or neck. Only grabbing is off limits although you are always welcome to try but that just gets you joint locked in a real painful way. But that's training, not competition. In training there's no real "rules" because the goal is different. The goal is more abstract. The goal is to "apply Taiji principles and techniques in a non-cooperative format". If both parties are really sticking to Taijiquan in a strict way, the result is push-hands, push hands that includes pushing, pulling, sweeping, throwing, locking, knee strikes, some punching and lots of locking. The most distinctive aspect is that there is continual contact between parties. It ends up being a bit like the legal definition of porn. In the words of Former Justice of the Supreme Court Potter Stewart:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced…but I know it when I see it…

lol

[wiz cool c]

in my experience i have seen nothing but patterns an a goofy semi free style exercise. i haven't really been looking though. and i did push freestyle with my current teacher for about 5 minutes one time ,and that was fun.

[Syn7]

That is a totally western phenomenon.

Check out the link I posted above of Chen Bing teaching freestyle push hands to what look like MMA students.

Or check out this fairly tame comp in China:
http://v.ku6.com/show/OjedUm000-PeN2K7.html

In China the rules are usually just that you can't grab (as you described) buy you can hook. You usually can't hook the neck or use your hands to hook the legs but legs attacking legs have been in almost every comp I've watched. In Chinese push hands comps, thowing and sweeping are as common as rice is at the lunch table.

so he quit cause of his shoulder???? after all that i was happy to see the two teamates(they were teamates ya?) go against eachother and how low they got on eachother im thinking, oh this might take a minute... then he quit... too bad...

anyways, the throws and sweeps were nice, very subtle and gentle for the most part... but those pushes, omg, thats ill... i would love to feel what thats like on the recieving end... ive done push hands, but im not that good at it... i only started learning yang forms recently... something to work towards forsure...

so if thats a "tame" event, show me a rough and brutal one... please?

[Syn7]

Here's some pretty good looking single hand pushing:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTIyOTk0MjQ=.html
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/14430209-1331519420.html


2 hand pushing:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/14426517-1331519420.html

In this pattern, you have more to work with than just relaxation, roundness and redirection. You need to learn to habitually check your opponents elbow and wrist and the door is opened up for all sorts of throws and arm-locks. People add different footwork patterns and variations until you get something that looks like it would be at home in any MMA gym:

Chen Bing teaching freestyle suitable for cage fighting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

Here's a pretty nice step-by-step breakdown of many of the moves in a more formal way. The guy in the cage, Chen Bing, is using almost entirely stuff learned initially in a style sort of like this clip which features his own teacher (and family relation too) Chen Xiaowang:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODUxMTg4NTI=.html

these examples are amazing...

do they react that way, the whole jump up and down shaking their hand, because they were shocked? like the healers can do? it doesnt look like your average reaction from being pushed... like chen bing pushes, you go flying into a wall... this chicca pushes and you jump up and down like u hit ur finger with a hammer??? whats the deal there...

i love the chen bing vids tho, he's going up against guys that can actually grapple, and you can see they cant push or pull him, despite the huge weight difference, then he sends them into the wall...



im convinced of chi thru personal experiences, but you gotta understand how somebody would look at this and think its fake, or the guys are taking dives to make the other look good... i would love to feel this myself...

[taai gihk yahn]

im convinced of chi thru personal experiences

as in, you breathe in and out, your nerves conduct electrical impulses to your muscles and other structures, your connective tissue system creates body-wide continuity of ground reaction force, your heart pumps blood out to the perifery, your venus and lymphatic system return fliud to the core, your metabolism generates heat, your digestive system converts food to energy, your endocrine system operates under various circadian rhythms and your autonomic nervous system mediates your stress and relaxation responses? well, yes, that would be a "personal experience";

there is nothing encompassing the metaphor of "chi" that does not occur within the normal function of human physiology; it is therefore not something to be convinced of, or demonstrated as some "force' beyond that; it is not some "separate", "other", "special" thing that you shoot out of your fingertips; "chi" is a metaphorical descriptor for the normal function of the human organism that was developed in absence of the capacity for direct observation of many physiological processes (e.g. - cellular respiration); all the stuff people claim to experience as "special" can be explained fairly straightforwardly by contemporary knowledge, including all of the seemingly odd effects that so-called healers exhibit;

the crazy stuff seen on the videos is a combination of entrainement and cultural coding: people jump up and down like monkeys because a) they want to be part of something extraordinary and so they are pre-programmed to be compliant and open to "suggestion"; b) they are told that doing this helps to dissipate the negative effects on their "chi" by being manipulated and so do it more consciously, adding to the effect; c) they are culturally programmed to make their teacher look good

[YouKnowWho]

Only grabbing is off limits although you are always welcome to try but that just gets you joint locked in a real painful way.

Omar, how can any Taiji guy be able to develop his joint locking if "grabbing" is off limits in PH?

How can you train your "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Si) - small circle wrist lock" if you don't allow your opponent to grab on your wrist? How can you train your counter for "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Si) - small circle wrist lock" if you don't grab on your opponent's wrist first?

[Syn7]

the crazy stuff seen on the videos is a combination of entrainement and cultural coding: people jump up and down like monkeys because a) they want to be part of something extraordinary and so they are pre-programmed to be compliant and open to "suggestion"; b) they are told that doing this helps to dissipate the negative effects on their "chi" by being manipulated and so do it more consciously, adding to the effect; c) they are culturally programmed to make their teacher look good

thats unfortunate... the chen bing vid leaves no doubt as to whats happening... the other ones are open to skepticism... you here people swear by it, but you just have to try it yourself to be sure...


yeah, my original understanding of energy was from a buddhist perspective... then i learned more from martial arts... so i came into chinese philosophy thru chinese boxing, but i already had an indian understanding thru other endeavors... i'll never forget the first time i had been tossed alot further than the effort would have suggested... everyone here has their own experiences with it... it opens up a whole new world as far as martial arts is concerned... well in general, i spose...

[Syn7]

there is nothing encompassing the metaphor of "chi" that does not occur within the normal function of human physiology; it is therefore not something to be convinced of, or demonstrated as some "force' beyond that; it is not some "separate", "other", "special" thing that you shoot out of your fingertips; "chi" is a metaphorical descriptor for the normal function of the human organism that was developed in absence of the capacity for direct observation of many physiological processes (e.g. - cellular respiration); all the stuff people claim to experience as "special" can be explained fairly straightforwardly by contemporary knowledge, including all of the seemingly odd effects that so-called healers exhibit;

you know, i had a conversation about this recently... this cat was going on about shaolin are cultists that suck in stupid people wiyth their so called mystical carny tricks... so, many years ago i read this book called the tao of physics by fritjof capra and since then ive read anything i could find on drawing paralells between modern physics and eastern mysticism... some, not all... i tried to explain it from that perspective to the guy but he wasnt having it, he already made up his mind, i shouldnt have bothered... but so many people define chi as this mystical life energy... they take words from old sources at face value without considering the time difference and the limited words they had to describe their observations from our perspectives... we use a whole new language to define the natural world... they dont see scientific words so they assume its something its not... its really hard to get people to think outside of the limitations theyve already imposed on themselves... nothing worse than someone who wont admit when they are wrong, or maybe just not as far along as they think they are... i am forever a student and im wrong all the time and im willing to listen to what others have to say... its frustrating to conversate with people who arent that way... whats worse, is its frustrating when i catch myself acting that way too, getting sucked into other peoples bull****...

so, has anyone here been shocked by somebody with thier hands??? not including the peter griffin style static shock

[taai gihk yahn]

thats unfortunate... the chen bing vid leaves no doubt as to whats happening... the other ones are open to skepticism... you here people swear by it, but you just have to try it yourself to be sure...

no argument w the Chen Bing stuff - although his opponent doesn't seem to be fully resisting, the technique is solid, what he does is reasonable and high percentage - and happens to look a lot less like the magical taiji we see and more like what you see from other systems with a clear understanding of the range

yeah, my original understanding of energy was from a buddhist perspective...

what sort of Buddhist perspective was that?

then i learned more from martial arts... so i came into chinese philosophy thru chinese boxing, but i already had an indian understanding thru other endeavors...

one can get pretty much the same effects from yogic practice as you can w/qigong to a degree, then it starts to diverge somewhat;

i'll never forget the first time i had been tossed alot further than the effort would have suggested... everyone here has their own experiences with it... it opens up a whole new world as far as martial arts is concerned... well in general, i spose...

I think that it's very hard to qualify that sort of thing - for example, if one is even a little bit compliant as the "throwee", it radically alters the degree of effort required by the "thrower" - decline to participate at the same juncture and you get nothing ; at the same time, you can see high level judo players use relatively little effort to throw someone who is fully resisting because of how they set them up, no magic involved...
also, what we agree to subscribe to as youthful novitiates in the arts may b very different from what we go along with after having some time in them...