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Thread: Push hands - what are the ins-n-outs?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    so he quit cause of his shoulder???? after all that i was happy to see the two teamates(they were teamates ya?) go against eachother and how low they got on eachother im thinking, oh this might take a minute... then he quit... too bad...
    I didn't see anything in the description of the clip to indicate that they were team mates. I think they were just good sportsman.
    anyways, the throws and sweeps were nice, very subtle and gentle for the most part...
    [snip]

    so if thats a "tame" event, show me a rough and brutal one... please?
    That's what I meant by "tame". I didn't watch it to the end so I didn't realize it got livelier as it went on. I just saw the first few techniques which seemed, as you put it, "subtle and gentle". I've seen some stuff out of Chen village that looked more just like someone took Judo and disallowed gi-grips.

    p.s. Wow. It really did get better as it went on.
    Last edited by omarthefish; 09-04-2010 at 02:47 PM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    these examples are amazing...

    do they react that way, the whole jump up and down shaking their hand, because they were shocked? like the healers can do? it doesnt look like your average reaction from being pushed... .
    I assume you are referring to the fist couple of clips. No. Not shocked. If you watch carefully, you can see that they got wrist locked. That's why they fly back so weird. It's just single hand so it's hard to get a good push off someones arm. Sometimes what happens is when one person pushed, the receiver seizes that moment of tension, changes the angle on the point of contact so the wrist is locked up and pushes back into it. Then you get a person flying away ****her because they are suddenly cooperating with you as their body instinctively leaps away from the pain of the lock.

  3. #18
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    Depends what you mean by shocked. For me personally, through the arms:

    Electric shock? No.

    Shocked like being shot in the palm of the hand by compressed air from 2 ft away? No.

    Shocked like a kick from shotgun? Yes.

    Shocked like having a huge dog suddenly tug you? Yes.
    "It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own." -Cicero

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Omar, how can any Taiji guy be able to develop his joint locking if "grabbing" is off limits in PH?

    How can you train your "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Si) - small circle wrist lock" if you don't allow your opponent to grab on your wrist? How can you train your counter for "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Si) - small circle wrist lock" if you don't grab on your opponent's wrist first?
    Like was mentioned earlier grabbing is not allowed but hooking is. Maybe in Chinese it's clearer. You can 拿, just not 抓.

    The best example of how a lock can be completely locked on that I can think of that everyone will understand is an arm bar. Leg across the persons front. Arms can be holding on to the wrist, hips up. If everythingthing is in place, there is no need to grab onto the arm with your fingers. Just hooking it with both hands and pulling back is enough.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    I assume you are referring to the fist couple of clips. No. Not shocked. If you watch carefully, you can see that they got wrist locked. That's why they fly back so weird. It's just single hand so it's hard to get a good push off someones arm. Sometimes what happens is when one person pushed, the receiver seizes that moment of tension, changes the angle on the point of contact so the wrist is locked up and pushes back into it. Then you get a person flying away ****her because they are suddenly cooperating with you as their body instinctively leaps away from the pain of the lock.
    the only thing I would say is that even if they were wrist locked, that the manner in which they were engaged predisposed them to get into that position - in other words, there was a degree of compliance that informed their movements - qualitatively, they were going with the flow, so to speak, and were directed into that position; now, IMPO, there is actually nothing wrong with that per se, but what I have issue w/is the pretense - in other words, thinking that it was the teacher's skill alone that enabled the outcome is deceptive - rather, it's more like a free-fow version of aikido - it is an interraction predicated on agreement that certain things will not occur - for example, the kind of movement quality that would make doing a wrist lock from that position basically impossible;

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiao3 Meng4 View Post
    Depends what you mean by shocked. For me personally, through the arms:

    Electric shock? No.

    Shocked like being shot in the palm of the hand by compressed air from 2 ft away? No.

    Shocked like a kick from shotgun? Yes.

    Shocked like having a huge dog suddenly tug you? Yes.
    well qualified

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    the only thing I would say is that even if they were wrist locked, that the manner in which they were engaged predisposed them to get into that position - in other words, there was a degree of compliance that informed their movements - qualitatively, they were going with the flow, so to speak, and were directed into that position; now, IMPO, there is actually nothing wrong with that per se, but what I have issue w/is the pretense - in other words, thinking that it was the teacher's skill alone that enabled the outcome is deceptive - rather, it's more like a free-fow version of aikido - it is an interraction predicated on agreement that certain things will not occur - for example, the kind of movement quality that would make doing a wrist lock from that position basically impossible;
    Well he's not applying a wrist lock in the usual way. He's not grabbing the wrist and twisting it. He's waiting for the other person to attempt to push and then changing the receiving angle to that the persons wrist (and arm) gets locked up which means that when he pushes back they are not able to relax their arm and their own arm becomes a big spring board.

    OTOH, I get what you are saying and did not initially want to show a clip that dramatic but there is a real dearth of single hand pushing exercises on the web. I think it's because most people, as I mentioned in my first post, underestimate the use of the exercise. Here's a clip that is more instructional and really breaks down what more
    typically
    happens and seems to be free of any of such suspect, overly dramatic stuff:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtQgzQwrzpI

    OTOOH....the both of them are is setting himself up for that same sort of wrist locking on pretty much every push. It's an annoying detail I see in most push hands and easily corrected. Don't know why no one seems aware of it.
    Last edited by omarthefish; 09-04-2010 at 03:22 PM.

  7. #22
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    Here's a clip of my friend and I playing around with Qin Na. It's not the most exemplary vid for many reasons (including size difference,) but it demonstrates a few things nicely.

    When we did this, we basically included submissions into the push hands rules. There's some experimenting and goofing off that occurs, but there's valuable info in analyzing that, too.

    We were both tired and drenched with sweat, which made it very hard to perform the grasps and locks. Even so, you will see a few locks emerge:

    The first lock is performed @ ~7 seconds by him and was similar to "Wrist Press" as seen on page 106 of Yang Jwing Ming's "Shaolin Qin Na."

    The second lock is performed @ ~2:30 by me and was similar to "Reverse wrist press" as seen on page 260 of the manual.

    The third lock was performed @ ~3:50 by me and was similar to a large elbow wrap as seen on page 204 of the manual.

    The fourth and final lock was performed @ ~6:30 by him and was similar to "Send the devil to heaven" as seen throughout the manual.

    Notably, most of the locks were wrist locks (including "send the devil to heaven.")

    NONE of the locks were separate finger locks. Only "send the devil to heaven" locked all the fingers at once.

    Note: we haven't been practicing from the manual, I'm just using it as a reference because it's widely available.
    Last edited by Xiao3 Meng4; 09-04-2010 at 05:03 PM.
    "It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own." -Cicero

  8. #23
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    Thanks for the info. I'll work my way through the vids.

    From a competition point of view, it seems to channel a bit of sumo.

    What I like about it is the commitment and body weight you have to put into it.
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
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    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  9. #24
    it will be interesting to see what comes of the whole chinese mma thing... its only a matter of time before kungfu works its way in there, more than it already has anyways...

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    what sort of Buddhist perspective was that?
    mahayana at first, it was my first experience with meditation, learning about chakras etc... but then my reading went all over the place... at first it was just interesting... then alot of it started making sense... i dont consider myself a buddhist tho... i dont have a label in that respect... always learning...

    you could draw paralells between yoga and qigong forsure...

    i dont like how some people view chi as something magical...

    has anyone read the tao of physics??? its a great jumpoff point for anyone interested in physics and chi... although it goes into alot more than chi...

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    I didn't see anything in the description of the clip to indicate that they were team mates. I think they were just good sportsman.

    That's what I meant by "tame". I didn't watch it to the end so I didn't realize it got livelier as it went on. I just saw the first few techniques which seemed, as you put it, "subtle and gentle". I've seen some stuff out of Chen village that looked more just like someone took Judo and disallowed gi-grips.

    p.s. Wow. It really did get better as it went on.
    oh they were just dressed the same... it was an assumption based on very little evidence

    anymore clips of push hand comps, throw em up...



    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    I assume you are referring to the fist couple of clips. No. Not shocked. If you watch carefully, you can see that they got wrist locked. That's why they fly back so weird. It's just single hand so it's hard to get a good push off someones arm. Sometimes what happens is when one person pushed, the receiver seizes that moment of tension, changes the angle on the point of contact so the wrist is locked up and pushes back into it. Then you get a person flying away ****her because they are suddenly cooperating with you as their body instinctively leaps away from the pain of the lock.
    yeah the first ones... i cant really see the hands very well... their reactions just looked odd to me...

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiao3 Meng4 View Post
    Depends what you mean by shocked. For me personally, through the arms:

    Electric shock? No.

    Shocked like being shot in the palm of the hand by compressed air from 2 ft away? No.

    Shocked like a kick from shotgun? Yes.

    Shocked like having a huge dog suddenly tug you? Yes.
    you know that shock feeling you get when from being poked in a nerve, thats what i meant... from some sort of grip or something... i dunno, thats why i asked

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    you know that shock feeling you get when from being poked in a nerve, thats what i meant... from some sort of grip or something... i dunno, thats why i asked

    Sure, it's possible - if your opponent isn't wriggling like a fish, flailing like a badger and his pain perception is in a non-combat state.

    When's that gonna be useful? I mean it might be, but I think a lock puts more pressure on the nerves than a "nerve strike."
    Last edited by Xiao3 Meng4; 09-04-2010 at 06:59 PM.
    "It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own." -Cicero

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiao3 Meng4 View Post
    Sure, it's possible - if your opponent isn't wriggling like a fish, flailing like a badger and his pain perception is in a non-combat state.

    When's that gonna be useful? I mean it might be, but I think a lock puts more pressure on the nerves than a "nerve strike."
    my sifu hit me in the neck awhile ago, not very hard, to illustrate a point and i got that shock down my side and even numbed a bit... it wasnt any sort of dim mak thing, just a chop...

    im not into dim mak, its hard enough to hit somebody clean, let alone do precision strike to some nerve... im just using the example to illustrate what i meant by shock... i dont know what else to call that...

    but in bjj i always use the 'squeeze and twist' motion, and that has that effect sometimes... esspecially in the wrists... u dig in to make them react in order to exploit their reaction...

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    it will be interesting to see what comes of the whole chinese mma thing... its only a matter of time before kungfu works its way in there, more than it already has anyways...
    it wil happen; china is good at jumping on whatever bandwagon is playing the oudest and mst popular tune (e.g. - Olympic sports - I mean, they went from nowhere to world class in diving)

    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    mahayana at first, it was my first experience with meditation, learning about chakras etc... but then my reading went all over the place... at first it was just interesting... then alot of it started making sense...
    yeh, I kno that feeling, lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    i dont consider myself a buddhist tho... i dont have a label in that respect... always learning...
    if u took refuge, u r a Buddhist; if u didn't, then you are, technically, not; it doesn't really matter one way or the other, of course, it's just a clear cut way of delineating things; I mean, this is their own internal qualification, but they certainly don't treat u better or worse one way or the other

    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    you could draw paralells between yoga and qigong forsure...
    considering how much stuff in TCMA was ripped off from yogic practice? sure thing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    i dont like how some people view chi as something magical...
    some people are not very good Buddhists, and as such need to change reality to suit their projections...

    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    has anyone read the tao of physics??? its a great jumpoff point for anyone interested in physics and chi... although it goes into alot more than chi...
    <groan>; TBH, I blame Kapra as much as I do anyone for the misue of "qi" by people who have no idea about physics or taoism - problem is, his book legitimized the viewpoint of "oh, particle physics? yeh, the Taoists had that all figured out 3,000 years ago and did it without any fancy experiments, and also do a better job of describing it", which many people use as justification for dismissing contemporary scientific thot as either incomplete, derivative or both as compared to Taoist practice, without actually knowing much about either! fact is, the Taoists had NO IDEA about quantum physics per se; what they did "know", based on how they observed the natural world around them, was that from a morphogentic perspective, there was repetition and redundancy across the spectrum in terms of macro reflecting micro - which is really nothing more profound than looking at a piece of broccoli, a human lung, a tree and a river delta and going, "gee, those all kinda look alike...hmmmmm" (and now we have fractal geometry to explain all that); in other words, quantum theory is visually described using models based on our experience of the physical world, what we "know" - but in "reality", it is a theory of probabilities, that can really only be explained mathematically - in "reality" at the level that quantum theory operates, u actually can't use concrete imagery to describe it - so the description becomes a metaphor; and since a lot of Taoist practice is also based on metaphor, and because human experience is pretty uniform across cultures and time, in terms of how we experience the physical (and in a sense finite) world, you are going to get a lot of similarities - for example, when we look at "natural" movement, we see a lot of 3-dimensional movement - essentially, spirals; and when people move spontaneously, such as in Taoist shamanic practice, u see a lot of spirals - like in sea shells, and in tree growth and in DNA - so wait - the Taoists MUST have known about DNA as well, because of all those spirals they danced in! see what I'm getting at here? the "truth" of life is this: spontaneous rediscovery of fundamental principles, of things such as they are - and there is your applied Buddhism 101; in other words, correlation and causality are two different things - but Kapra drew the parallels and then drew conclusions based on his own internal subjective issues (if I recall correctly, it's been over 15 yrs since I picked that book up) - so while the comparisons are cool, the conclusions do a disservice to both Taoist practice and particle physics: I mean, have u ever looked at some of the equations, or the machinery, the level of technical complexity involved in atom smashing? how could some guy 2,000 yrs ago, living in a hole up the side of a mountain have ANY concept of what that involves? at the same time, he did experience the same world as a physicist living today, so of course there will be similarities, as both of these men were / are by their nature looking into the fundamental nature of things! and as such, the way the ask the question and frame the answer will be based on that common human experience on a certain level;
    just my 2¢...

  15. #30
    yeah i had some issues with the book too... esspecially the whole dance of shiva section... but the book did open my mind to certain concepts as real world stuff and took my head out of the clouds a bit... after i read that book i read this massive article on fractals... i wish i still had it, i cant even remember the name and i wont try to explain its hypothisis but my point is that it was a sequence in a chain of events that started, in part, by the tao of physics... when i was like 17, i lived in two worlds and had no tether between the two... slowly but surely those realities needed to come together... not that im satisfied with where im at today, but im not at all what i was either, as far as bringing spiritual curiosities and real world life together... i dont imagine it will take some sort of epiphany to sync the two completely... one day i'll just be like "oh, nice"...


    and just becoz stupid people read it and think "oh he's credable, he has fancy titles, it must be true" doesnt make it his fault... i heard afterward he teemed up with a christian priest to do some work... never checked it out, kinda had moved on by then...

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