Push hands - what are the ins-n-outs?

[taai gihk yahn]

yeah i had some issues with the book too... esspecially the whole dance of shiva section... but the book did open my mind to certain concepts as real world stuff and took my head out of the clouds a bit... after i read that book i read this massive article on fractals... i wish i still had it, i cant even remember the name and i wont try to explain its hypothisis but my point is that it was a sequence in a chain of events that started, in part, by the tao of physics... when i was like 17, i lived in two worlds and had no tether between the two... slowly but surely those realities needed to come together... not that im satisfied with where im at today, but im not at all what i was either, as far as bringing spiritual curiosities and real world life together... i dont imagine it will take some sort of epiphany to sync the two completely... one day i'll just be like "oh, nice"...


and just becoz stupid people read it and think "oh he's credable, he has fancy titles, it must be true" doesnt make it his fault... i heard afterward he teemed up with a christian priest to do some work... never checked it out, kinda had moved on by then...

hey, I hear ya - when i first read it, I was like "way cool", so as an "eye opener", it has definite value, as far as drawing parallels (another book "Sensitive Chaos" by Theodor Schwenk does the same thing on a more macro level - definietly a neat book to check out), but IMPO one must be careful not to fall into the sort of "spiritual elitism" that I myself was a purveyor of for many years, looking down on "modern" science as being vastly inferior to Taoist practice, without having really an understanding of either; and I still only have limited knowledge of each, but I am not so reactionary now as I once was - I try to discern out things as such compared to things such as I would like them to be...

[omarthefish]

Freestyle push hands competition from Chen village:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzM4ODUzOTI=.html

This is the sort of thing that made me say the other clip was "a bit tame".

Some very detailed teaching going on here:
http://www.56.com/u88/v_NTQxODU2Mzc.html

Same guy as above in a short clip where he's locking the wrists in the way I was trying to describe before but you can see his hands clearly in this one because he's teaching rather than demonstrating: http://www.56.com/u89/v_MzcyNzg0NjI.html

edit:
I think this clip shows it even better and with more power. The guy would totally be flying back except that sometimes the teacher holds onto him:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTcwMzc1MTY0.html

How about a really nice little instructional on standard 2 hand push and several of the typical applications that flow out of it? It's in Chinese but it's still pretty clear if you open your eyes and watch cafefully:
http://www.56.com/u95/v_MTI1OTk2NjA.html

[wiz cool c]

Mario the only american guy who competed in and won the Chen Village push hands competition told me once ,while training at an open push hands group,"just train in judo". Here is a guy who competed against and won against the best,saying just train judo. Again since I have been living here.training in china for over four years I have done only bagua,shuai jiao and hung chuan,No push hands or tai chi training. But i did go and check out a Chen style teacher at the beging of my stay And in a two hour class they did about two minute of free style fixed step push hands. I talked to one of the students and he told me once in a while they do the moving push hands whith the circle. That to me is the problem with the internal arts and resistence work, they do thing once in a while. There is no consitancy in their training.Nore is there a systematic method of training.

In my shuai Jiao training in beijing,we spared every lesson, and hard and for a long time. on my first lesson I spared the teacher for about 20 minutes. on my second lesson I spared one of his top students.I also see no value to training without grabs. It is a bad habit. In the real world people grab.people throw and sweep.if you train in push hands cause you love it and it is part of your style then fine, but i do feel it is a short comming.

[ShaolinDan]

Thanks Omar. Those are some great vids. Nice illustrations of skill progression and what it really means to be 'high-level.'

[Syn7]

Mario the only american guy who competed in and won the Chen Village push hands competition told me once ,while training at an open push hands group,"just train in judo". Here is a guy who competed against and won against the best,saying just train judo. Again since I have been living here.training in china for over four years I have done only bagua,shuai jiao and hung chuan,No push hands or tai chi training. But i did go and check out a Chen style teacher at the beging of my stay And in a two hour class they did about two minute of free style fixed step push hands. I talked to one of the students and he told me once in a while they do the moving push hands whith the circle. That to me is the problem with the internal arts and resistence work, they do thing once in a while. There is no consitancy in their training.Nore is there a systematic method of training.

In my shuai Jiao training in beijing,we spared every lesson, and hard and for a long time. on my first lesson I spared the teacher for about 20 minutes. on my second lesson I spared one of his top students.I also see no value to training without grabs. It is a bad habit. In the real world people grab.people throw and sweep.if you train in push hands cause you love it and it is part of your style then fine, but i do feel it is a short comming.

even tho its turned into a bit of a sport, i was under the impression that push hands original purpose isnt to be a good grappler... i didnt think it was the end all acheivement in taiji... just a part of a bigger program... for practicing a few particular skills... im no expert, when i first saw it i thought to myself, "a first dan judoka could clear this room" but i was told i wasnt looking at it the right way... my goals werent the same as their goals... and their goals take time to truly understand... at first i brushed it off, whatever, people always say that "u dont get us and u have to be us to get us" but then it sunk in later on when i had some more experiences with it...

the first push hands i ever saw was pretty low level for all but like 3 seniors, and they were pretty rough... but later on i saw some rules that were alot different, no throws or grabing etc... hooking pulling pushing, that was it, and it was my understanding that this was more what it was supposed to be... again, i dunno tho... i find this thread pretty interesting, at the school im learning random stuff from the "ancients in the back" when i go early and im starting to really enjoy it... the slower you go the stronger you need to be, mistakes cant be hidden at all... its a very honest art in that respect... unlike these guys that go ape**** and claim to have done this and that but it was so fast, who knows sometimes...

[taai gihk yahn]

Same guy as above in a short clip where he's locking the wrists in the way I was trying to describe before b

ok, I get what u r saying as regards a wrist lock w/out twisting the wrist;

it's similar to both ikyu and nikyu in aikido, although there are some differences as far as what's ultimately being locked as well as how the move is finished; personally, I like to call it a forearm lock vs a wrist lock; in fact, to be more precise, you are spiral-binding the interosseous membrane of the forearm - what's happening is that you are manipulating the membrane btw ulna and radius in such a way that you are taking up all available degrees of freedom three-dimensionally (stacking, is what they call this in osteopathy, which is one way of treating this membrane), and then sending a linear force up the long axis of the forearm, but doing it while the forearm is twisted - as such, it has no capacity to accommodate locally, and therefore has to go up to the elbow / shoulder in order to do so; this is why you can get such an abrupt response through the whole system by a small movement;

of course, to some degree there is still compliance going on as the easiest "solution" is to just let go with your hand, and the problem is solved; which underscores the idea that this lock cannot occur if there is no grab;

that said, I appreciate the mechanics of what is being show in detail - in fact, the way the teacher uses his fingers in a "tiled roof" configuration is an important part of this - very similar to what BP Chan used to show (and this technique was one he spent a great deal of time on, at least in my limited time with him);

[omarthefish]

to be more precise, you are spiral-binding the interosseous membrane of the forearm - what's happening is that you are manipulating the membrane btw ulna and radius in such a way that you are taking up all available degrees of freedom three-dimensionally (stacking, is what they call this in osteopathy, which is one way of treating this membrane), and then sending a linear force up the long axis of the forearm, but doing it while the forearm is twisted - as such, it has no capacity to accommodate locally, and therefore has to go up to the elbow / shoulder in order to do so; this is why you can get such an abrupt response through the whole system by a small movement;

ding!ding!ding! We have a winner.

Yes. That is exactly what happens.

of course, to some degree there is still compliance going on as the easiest "solution" is to just let go with your hand, and the problem is solved;

Easier said than done. The timing is just incredible. The guy applying the technique needs to wait for the other persons attack. IMO, this is a classic example of "borrowing force". The technique does not work unless the other person is trying to push you back. If he just lays his hand gently on your forearm, you have nothing to work with. It's one of the strange little details of the Taiji qin na I have learned so far. The other person has to be trying to do something to you for most of them to work.

which underscores the idea that this lock cannot occur if there is no grab;

They don't have to grab. Just trying to push you is enough. It all happens so fast. In the vids I posted that show it clearly, the old guy is teaching so everything is slowed down. He is intentionally making the dynamic more clear by doing it in slow motion.

Incidentally I was just arguing elsewhere that grabbing makes you vulnerable to qin na. This little idea is a classic example.

[KC Elbows]

Digging some of the clips in this thread. Nice to see you around, Omar!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've noticed that when people try to grab me or push me that they can't do it when I punch them in the face real hard.
I also noticed that their ability to "sense" and read me doesn't work when my fist makes contact with their face.

[David Jamieson]

I've noticed that when people try to grab me or push me that they can't do it when I punch them in the face real hard.
I also noticed that their ability to "sense" and read me doesn't work when my fist makes contact with their face.

How will you ever comprehend the soft then? lol

anyway, PH is namby pamby crap. I hate it. It's a good exercise in the beginning to understand listening skills, but when it's taken to the ludicrous levels that it is, well that's where it becomes the utter shyte that it is. I guess if you use it as some form of isometric exercise that would maybe benefit a little bit. That's about the only way I use it if I use it at all anymore.

either box or wrestle already, or both. Push hands is a teaching tool at the front end of the learning path.

people who don't know how to or don't have the guts to fight substitute PH in that place. Talk about sliding down that slippery slope. No benefit after beginners understanding is achieved.

[KC Elbows]

I've noticed that when people try to grab me or push me that they can't do it when I punch them in the face real hard.

You are wrong. The reality is that their self destructive chi is manifested in a way that their self loathing over not having worked outside of bridge range is manifested by using their chi subconsciously to control you and punch themselves in the face. As such, they are able to learn.

I also noticed that their ability to "sense" and read me doesn't work when my fist makes contact with their face.

Again, you're theories are merely the offhand remarks of a glorified kickboxer. You are Canadian. Their attempts to read you are clearly thrown off by their inability to translate into French and english. Additionally, the subtleties of parliamentary politics throw off many a normally useful technique!

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are wrong. The reality is that their self destructive chi is manifested in a way that their self loathing over not having worked outside of bridge range is manifested by using their chi subconsciously to control you and punch themselves in the face. As such, they are able to learn.



Again, you're theories are merely the offhand remarks of a glorified kickboxer. You are Canadian. Their attempts to read you are clearly thrown off by their inability to translate into French and english. Additionally, the subtleties of parliamentary politics throw off many a normally useful technique!

*kicks empty can*
Fine...

[KC Elbows]

How will you ever comprehend the soft then? lol

anyway, PH is namby pamby crap. I hate it. It's a good exercise in the beginning to understand listening skills, but when it's taken to the ludicrous levels that it is, well that's where it becomes the utter shyte that it is. I guess if you use it as some form of isometric exercise that would maybe benefit a little bit. That's about the only way I use it if I use it at all anymore.

either box or wrestle already, or both. Push hands is a teaching tool at the front end of the learning path.

people who don't know how to or don't have the guts to fight substitute PH in that place. Talk about sliding down that slippery slope. No benefit after beginners understanding is achieved.

I would suggest that most don't take it far enough. At the point where footwork isn't fixed, it is adding strikes away from sparring, so both can be done. Coincidentally, at the point where footwork isn't fixed, people need to accept that it's pretty much Shuai Jiao. I think its good to work throw setups when one wants to, but agree that, as a skill set on it's own that people work on for bragging rights, it's can be silly.

I think one of the main problems, and one that Bing's clip in Omar's posts gets around, is that no one worth their salt should be impressed by pushing scrubs. If I see a guy pushing someone who has a weight edge in a fairly realisitic manner, and their opponent isn't hopeless, it's worth more than being able to push an anaemic male model with a soul patch.

[KC Elbows]

You're only posting that pic because you know it will make my wife angry at me. Why do you hate me so?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You're only posting that pic because you know it will make my wife angry at me. Why do you hate me so?

Moi?
Whatsoever do you mean?