Push hands - what are the ins-n-outs?

[KC Elbows]

Moi?
Whatsoever do you mean?

I'm so thankful that you don't always post a link the right way.

After all, more booby from you means less booby for me, though I am not averse to angry booby one bit. Because it is still yeilding, like taiji!

[Yum Cha]

How will you ever comprehend the soft then? lol

anyway, PH is namby pamby crap. I hate it. It's a good exercise in the beginning to understand listening skills, but when it's taken to the ludicrous levels that it is, well that's where it becomes the utter shyte that it is. I guess if you use it as some form of isometric exercise that would maybe benefit a little bit. That's about the only way I use it if I use it at all anymore.

either box or wrestle already, or both. Push hands is a teaching tool at the front end of the learning path.

people who don't know how to or don't have the guts to fight substitute PH in that place. Talk about sliding down that slippery slope. No benefit after beginners understanding is achieved.

I agree with David, its a tool, a building block to work on a subset of skills, towards integrating them into the complete Martial Artist.

If they become an end to themselves, no biggie, it its entertaining, but its not complete. I can see people get really into it.

I'm working with some young fighters, trying to get them to ratchet up. I find this exercise lets them get commitment and body weight into it, and importantly, gets them moving laterally, and is 'low impact'.

Breaking the whole into little pieces to practice, then re-assembling the pieces into a complete execution.

[Yum Cha]

You're only posting that pic because you know it will make my wife angry at me. Why do you hate me so?

Well mate, don't send him pictures of your wife then!

[KC Elbows]

Well mate, don't send him pictures of your wife then!

You're not helping the situation!

[Yum Cha]

You're not helping the situation!

What! Mrs KC's a dead-set Glamma!

You certainly are boxing above your weight class....

.......

[omarthefish]

I've noticed that when people try to grab me or push me that they can't do it when I punch them in the face real hard.
I also noticed that their ability to "sense" and read me doesn't work when my fist makes contact with their face.

That's true but then again, most people suck.

anyway, PH is namby pamby crap. I hate it. It's a good exercise in the beginning to understand listening skills, but when it's taken to the ludicrous levels that it is, well that's where it becomes the utter shyte that it is. I guess if you use it as some form of isometric exercise that would maybe benefit a little bit. That's about the only way I use it if I use it at all anymore...

Again, suckage abounds. Also, the idea that it could be used as some sort of isometric exercise reallio trulio emphasizes the suckage that you must have experienced. If their's any of that sort of thing going on, then both parties haven't got a clue what they are supposed to be doing.

I do take your general point and it follows up on Ronin's point but the fact is, push hands can be made to accommodate a hell of a lot more than what most peope use it for. Face punching, kicking, knees and throws can all be added in and, at some point, should be added in and at that point, as KC suggested, it does start to look a lot like Shuai Jiao. The Chen village push hands is hard to tell apart from Shuai Jiao so I suppose for them David's comment that it's "just for beginners" would have to apply to Judo randori as well since that entire repertoire is allowed except that in push hands, if both parties agree on it, you can add punching, head buts, knees and small joint manipulation into the mix.

... Talk about sliding down that slippery slope. No benefit after beginners understanding is achieved.

The slippery slope is created by the participants when they get enamored of certain aspects of push hands and create a bunch of imaginary rules where this or that isn't allowed and they try to get overly civil about the whole thing. The only thing that I'd say is particularly constant about across all the different styles of push hands I experience with my teacher is that it's not push hands when you break contact and it's not push hands when you abandon Taiji techniques and try to simply overpower your partner.

Admittedly, I get to do this free for all, freestepping, striking, grappling push hands with Shifu not nearly as often as I'd like but it does happen from time to time. Last weekend was one of those times. We started off with the single hand circling thing. Then he decides to do a little power testing just briefly. Then he kind of abandons that pattern and I have to bring my other hand up to defend myself. Then it's two hands with me trying like hell to keep my fingers and thumbs from being snapped. To try to escape his qin-na I have to start circling. Suddenly he switches to Bagua for a bit and throws some strikes my way. Then a flurry of Xing Yi pi and beng quans and then back to "regular" freestyle while I try my ****dest to apply what little Shuai Jiao I know and all the trips that I am a fair bit better at. He throws a handful of palms at my face and at some point his wife starts screaming at us to stop before he hurts me.

It was as rough and scary as any sparring I have ever done. I suppose the Xing Yi and Bagua bits would have to qualify as sparring since technically we were not really using Taiji repetoire at that point and certainly broke contact briefly but the level of contact was still like what you might see in Chi Sau when they throw those pak sau and punch combinations. Engagement is still continuous even if physical contact is momentarily broken.

It's main purpose is, IMO, to bridge the gap between form and fighting. It allows you to explore all the potential applications of the movements of your form and encourages you to work from within that curriculum. There are things that you learn in sparring that push hands can not teach you but there are also a hell of a lot of things that push hands can teach that sparring can't.

IMO, anyone who thinks that push hands is just for beginners or is just a "balance and sensitivity exercise" has had very little exposure to the full range of what it can be used to teach. It is aggravated by the fact that most all of the people I have run into who are invested in teaching Taiji as a martial art, teach push hands too early and rush right into freestyle giving not nearly enough attention to the basics. The result is a sort of low skilled randori between people who don't have any actual techniques under their belt and no real image of the kind of martial skill they are trying to develop. In that light, all the criticisms are valid.

I see things differently.

[YouKnowWho]

David's comment that it's "just for beginners" would have to apply to Judo randori ...

Some people stay in push hands, boxing, Judo randori, or SC wrestling all their life, some people pass beyond that and move on. There is nothing wrong to train the "beginner stuff" in the early stage of your life time. Soon or later, you have to gradulate out of your grade school and move into your high school, and then move into your college.

When an 80 years old Taiji master demonstrated push hands, I started to wonder, "Does he understand the integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game?" "Why did he refuse to gradulate from his elementary school?"

[Yum Cha]

It's main purpose is, IMO, to bridge the gap between form and fighting. It allows you to explore all the potential applications of the movements of your form and encourages you to work from within that curriculum. There are things that you learn in sparring that push hands can not teach you but there are also a hell of a lot of things that push hands can teach that sparring can't.

IMO, anyone who thinks that push hands is just for beginners or is just a "balance and sensitivity exercise" has had very little exposure to the full range of what it can be used to teach. It is aggravated by the fact that most all of the people I have run into who are invested in teaching Taiji as a martial art, teach push hands too early and rush right into freestyle giving not nearly enough attention to the basics. The result is a sort of low skilled randori between people who don't have any actual techniques under their belt and no real image of the kind of martial skill they are trying to develop. In that light, all the criticisms are valid.

I see things differently.

This is what I was thinking when I started playing with it. Its interesting because Pak Mei and Tai Chi are superficially different, yet in this area, we have a lot of game.

I think you work it up, removing rules, until it becomes sparring...or ratchet it down to focus on specific dynamic skills, depending on the skill level.

We talk a lot about committed opponents and learning to use your style under that pressure. It appears to be a good training tool towards that end is what I'm hearing.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I'm glad that there's discussion on this. I've been thinking about it for a while, too, ever since I read this book about 4 years ago:

Play Practice: The Games Approach to Teaching Sports by Alan Launder.

The book is an important one for anyone wanting to explore live training through progressive rulesets. This method is in line with Malcolm Gladwell's research, as well as V.S. Ramachandran's.

In applying the games approach to MA training, I've gone back to what is, I'm sure, a fairly old tool: the ring.

Launder emphasizes 3 important aspects to developing what he calls "games sense:" Rulesets, tactics, and strategies. Ruleset progression is the key I'm working with. Using the ring, I'm working through a series of games that, through their rules, are designed to teach specific tactics and strategies.

My current games progression layout is:

1. Fixed Step Push Hands
2a. Moving Step/ring out Push Hands
2b. ring-out Boxing
3a. ring out Qin Na
3b. ring out chi sao
4a. ring-out Shuai Jiao
4b. ring-out kickboxing (or Olympic style TKD rules)
5a. Shuai Jiao w/ 3 second pin
5b. ring-out San Da/Lei Tai
6a. Submission Wrestling
6b. San Da w/ 3 second pin
7. MMA

I may add or change some of the games as I work my way through.

Proficiency/competence or "Games sense" in 1 allows training at 2, and so forth.

[omarthefish]

Some people stay in push hands, boxing, Judo randori, or SC wrestling all their life, some people pass beyond that and move on. There is nothing wrong to train the "beginner stuff" in the early stage of your life time. Soon or later, you have to gradulate out of your grade school and move into your high school, and then move into your college.

Well that is a fairer comparison. If you think of boxing, randori or even pure shuai jiao wrestling also as "begginer stage" then I can work with that as it seems like you consider only full freestyle sparring or actual fighting to be advanced.

I feel like Yum Cha has totally got where I am coming from and Xiao Meng is presenting an interesting twist on the idea I hadn't really thought about much.

[Yum Cha]

Well that is a fairer comparison. If you think of boxing, randori or even pure shuai jiao wrestling also as "begginer stage" then I can work with that as it seems like you consider only full freestyle sparring or actual fighting to be advanced.

I feel like Yum Cha has totally got where I am coming from and Xiao Meng is presenting an interesting twist on the idea I hadn't really thought about much.

yea, I'm on the same page with Xiao Meng, in principle, details may vary....

[Xiao3 Meng4]

yea, I'm on the same page with Xiao Meng, in principle, details may vary....

Good. Evolution benefits from variety.

[tiaji1983]

Push hands:
Fixxed position - you stick to the opponent and move in fixxed positions to feel your opponent and learn to sense direction, power, and speed.
Stationary - (the hardest to master) you stick to the opponent and your feet stay in one position, and you counter and use the 13 powers against the opponents direction, power and speed. You learn how to sink and root properly.
Moving - you stick to the opponent and move while you counter and use the 13 powers against the opponents direction, power and speed
sparring/fighting - you learn to connect, stick, close in distance, and move while you counter and use the 13 powers against the opponents direction, power and speed.

In a nutshell push hands just develops sensitivity and helps you relaxe in a close counter environment, and then teaches you how to stick as you move with an opponent, and then you can use all those techniques efectively in a fight, once you learn how to connect. Rules just complicate things, and waters down the style, but Chen Chang Xin's 36 sicknesses show you how to develop sensitivity and skill in countering the most efficiently. Hence "rules" like not holding, committing your grasp, and not sweeping or tripping. It wastes energy you dont need to be wasting. If you can easily roll a log around, why would you want to carry it?

[YouKnowWho]

Well that is a fairer comparison. If you think of boxing, randori or even pure shuai jiao wrestling also as "begginer stage" then I can work with that as it seems like you consider only full freestyle sparring or actual fighting to be advanced.

It takes a lot of courage to move beyond your comfortable area. There is a voice that keep telling you, "You are fine just stay, no need to move on." There is always another voice that keep telling you, "If you stay, you will regret the day when you die". Not willing to change is always human's weakness. On the other hand, the excitement of changing will always make you feel young and alive.

[omarthefish]

It takes a lot of courage to move beyond your comfortable area. There is a voice that keep telling you, "You are fine just stay, no need to move on." There is always another voice that keep telling you, "If you stay, you will regret the day when you die". Not willing to change is always human's weakness. On the other hand, the excitement of changing will always make you feel young and alive.

That's a really interesting reply because it says much more about your own personality than about the relative merits of the argument.

Everyone out there has their own personal preference for change vs. stability. For some people "the excitement of change" may make them feel young and alive but for others it just makes them nervous and fearful. Some people thrive on change and others thrive more on stability. My wife hates to order anything at a restaurant that we have had before. She always wants to try something new. OTOH, I when I discover a dish I really like, I order the same thing every time for a long time. I'm just so happy to find something I really enjoy.

You may regret it if you stay. Some other people may regret not having gone deeper into that same place. I'll give you an example:

I left Hung Gar after 8 years under one of the top teachers in the whole United States. Sometimes I really regret it. If I had stayed with Hung Gar, I would be a teacher already by now. It would have been 18 years already and I could have learned pretty much the whole style and be much closer to my lifelong dream of living as a professional kung fu teacher.