WCK's "operating system"

[t_niehoff]

Van's response, taken from another thread . . .

So while it shows up, Wing Chun mainly works for a specific range and situation...and as such I tend to use MY wing chun when I'm within arm's length or closer. It doesn't make sense to use wing chun at longer ranges then that--so while it CAN be used at farther ranges--it wasn't built for that based on my understanding of it. Opinions obviously vary on that part.

. . . is exactly right -- this is WCK's "operating range" (what we call "the phone booth"): you NEED to be at that range or closer for the WCK tools to operate/work.

But that's only part of WCK's operating system. From my training with Robert, I came to see that WCK has four elements/aspects to its "operating system". These are things that need to be in place in order to make your WCK work.

First is WCK body structure, What that means is that you can use your body like a spring, to "receive" pressure without moving/collapsing, etc. The kuit "Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung" (As he comes, receive; if he leaves, escort. Charge in upon loss of contact with your opponent's hand) describes this body structure and how it responds to pressure. You also need to be able to strike with this body structure (which doesn't involve rotation).

Second is facing (the square-on facing of our opponent).

Third is range (that we are within arm's reach of our opponent's body).

Fourth is WCK bridge structure (that our arms are between our body and the opponent's body and that are elbows are down and in - inside our body line). Some call this "the fixed elbow principle".

When you deviate from these four elements, your ability to use your WCK tools or movement or actions will be greatly compromised.

And, Robert showed me that if you look at the first several points of all three empty hand forms, you see that these elements are emphasized -- the first point in all forms is the opening of the horse or bai jong, assuming body structure; the second point in all the forms is the sup jee sao, the crossed arms which points to the square-on facing (and with that, the ability to use both equally hands at the same time -- which you will need to do); the next point is the opening punches, the jik chung choi which points to the range (you must be within an arm's length of your opponent); and, in all of these, your arms are between you and your opponent and your elbows are down and in (which connects your bridges to your body structure - the elbow-down power). Everything that follows, with only few exceptions, require these elements to be in place.

So, in terms of "application", if you don't have body structure, it doesn't matter what else you do, your WCK won't work. The form -- a living textbook -- "tells" you that if you want your WCK to work then assuming structure (bai jong) is your first priority. And everything else that follows depends on that structure being in place. Next is the facing. Once you have body structure in place, you need to face your opponent properly (square on). If your facing is off, you won't be able to use the WCK tools to their fullest. And everything else that follows depends on that body structure and facing being in place. Next is range, being within an arm's length of your opponent. If you are at a greater range you won't be able to use the tools (your body leverage decreases, etc.). And everything else that follows depends on that body structure, facing, and range being in place. Finally, you need to have your arms between you and your opponent with your elbows down and in.

For me, this is WCK on its most basic level: are these four aspects in place and always operating - in your drills and in your application?

[Pacman]

and as such I tend to use MY wing chun when I'm within arm's length or closer. It doesn't make sense to use wing chun at longer ranges then that

how is this unique to WC? in what fighting style can you use your arms when your target is ****her away than your arms reach? at this point its up to your footwork and other techniques for setting up and engaging to get you within striking distance. again, not unique to WC.

[Dave McKinnon]

T-Man
1. Body Structure
2. Facing
3. Range
4. Bridge Structure

D-Man: The main tools or 4 essential areas are
1. Body Alignment - Facing and creating the body Spring
2. Body Structure - Linking Body and Bridge to act as the Spring as well as the Hammer and Nail
3. The Wing Chun Fist and Kick - Facing and proper mechanics, all tools are derived from the WC striking method.
4. Footwork - Also facing as well as range and the all important timing of the application.

Very good man! I like it succinct and to the point.

Dave McKinnon

[Eric_H]

1. Body Structure
2. Facing
3. Range
4. Bridge Structure

D-Man: The main tools or 4 essential areas are
1. Body Alignment - Facing and creating the body Spring
2. Body Structure - Linking Body and Bridge to act as the Spring as well as the Hammer and Nail
3. The Wing Chun Fist and Kick - Facing and proper mechanics, all tools are derived from the WC striking method.
4. Footwork - Also facing as well as range and the all important timing of the application.

Dave,

I think we'd probably disagree on how to form the body structure, but the software and logic flow are in agreement, good post.

[t_niehoff]

how is this unique to WC? in what fighting style can you use your arms when your target is ****her away than your arms reach? at this point its up to your footwork and other techniques for setting up and engaging to get you within striking distance. again, not unique to WC.

What you are describing is what all boxers and kickboxers do -- move in and out of "striking range". In WCK, we don't "enter" into striking range, we enter into the phone booth, to the inside, and most often into direct attachment (clinch). Not only does this range permit us to strike but it permits us to use all our other (non-striking) tools for controlling our opponent (tan, bong, fook, biu, pak, etc.).

[shaolin_allan]

One thing that I hear from others about wing chun is with the correct body posture at least in my system we keep our chins back instead of tucked in like a boxer. People don't seem to understand that we're not leaving ourselves open to get knocked out and that the head is far enough back with our arms in guard position that even if a boxer swings a hook with a slight reach advantage you should still be able to defend it easily. I could be wrong just my two cents

[Dave McKinnon]

Thanks Eric

I really don't care how anyone forms the body structure.
Shift on your toe or heel - I don't care
Have body structure or not - I don't care
Straight or Side body - I don't care
Shaolin or Red boat - Don't care

I am at a point where I look at the result, or what I call "same result."
If there three families of Wing Chun A, B, and C and they all are trying to achieve the same goal X. And say X is to intercept an attack and follow through against a resisting opponent then if A = X, B = X and C = X then all achieve the same result. All are good.

Say A prefers to shift and Tan Da but then cannot follow through then A does not equal X, A = Sucky Wing Chun. If B shifts and follows through then B = Good Wing Chun. If C doesn't shift and follows through well then C is also = Good Wing Chun.

I look more at people who can use Timing, Distance, Position, and Mechanical Advantage to Face, Change, Break and Control the opponents center through Directly Striking or Intercepting the attack and Regain the center when lost as having decent Wing Chun.

Then I care. Because that is good WC whether from China, Hong Kong, Istanbul or San Diego.

To wordy? I don't care :P

Dave McKinnon

[SAAMAG]

how is this unique to WC? in what fighting style can you use your arms when your target is ****her away than your arms reach? at this point its up to your footwork and other techniques for setting up and engaging to get you within striking distance. again, not unique to WC.

I agree that in order to actually hit someone you have to be within punchig range. But no one said it was unique to wc, and no one talked about punching only. Whats being discussed is the application of wc in its entirety from a proper range.

So can you apply wc outside the pocket? Sure! Is it truly wing chun at that moment though? Not if you're not applying all the elements that define wing chun.

[shaolin_allan]

exactly the principles can be applied while in other ranges but wing chun was designed as a close ranged system to be used in it's entirety. I am perfectly fine with that since most real fights take place close range.

[shawchemical]

I agree that in order to actually hit someone you have to be within punchig range. But no one said it was unique to wc, and no one talked about punching only. Whats being discussed is the application of wc in its entirety from a proper range.

So can you apply wc outside the pocket? Sure! Is it truly wing chun at that moment though? Not if you're not applying all the elements that define wing chun.

But it is not applying all of the elements all of the time that makes good VT or bad. It is applying things in circumstances where they are not applicable that makes it bad.

Timing, facing, structure, angle shifting can all apply on the outside. If you are still using the nearest weapon, nearest target in the shortest distance possible, it is still VTK.

[kung fu fighter]

how is this unique to WC? in what fighting style can you use your arms when your target is ****her away than your arms reach? at this point its up to your footwork and other techniques for setting up and engaging to get you within striking distance. again, not unique to WC.

I agree 100%, for any fighting to take place both participants have to be within range regardless of styles. That's why I don't like the whole "wing chun only works in a phone booth" analogy. That kind of limited thinking restricts the use of the system. I prefer to say "wing chun works really well any time you are in range to be hit"

[t_niehoff]

But it is not applying all of the elements all of the time that makes good VT or bad. It is applying things in circumstances where they are not applicable that makes it bad.

The problem is that UNLESS you do all these things, you can't apply WCK in any circumstances.

Timing, facing, structure, angle shifting can all apply on the outside. If you are still using the nearest weapon, nearest target in the shortest distance possible, it is still VTK.

Ah, no. WCK isn't "using the nearest weapons to hit the nearest target" -- this is Bruce's "concept" from JKD. And this is a great example of how people "integrate" other things into WCK and call it WCK, teach it as WCK, and then their students go forth spreading the gospel. And it just takes us further away from WCK.

"Timing", "facing", "structure", "angle shifting" are simply words/terms. WCK has a very specific body structure, a very specific way of facing, a very specific bridge structure, etc. It's not whatever the hell you want to do (nearest weapon to nearest target) -- as I tried to illustrate, the forms and drills, and kuit to some respect, provide the specifics.

[t_niehoff]

I agree 100%, for any fighting to take place both participants have to be within range regardless of styles. That's why I don't like the whole "wing chun only works in a phone booth" analogy. That kind of limited thinking restricts the use of the system. I prefer to say "wing chun works really well any time you are in range to be hit"

Lots of people say that WCK can be used on the outside -- the problem is that we never SEE that. As soon as you see people spar (100% intensity) on the outside, you see the WCK movement go out the window. And that's because, as I pointed out in my post, WCK movement is "designed" for a certain, specific range - when you are inside the phone booth - and when you try to use it outside that range, it doesn't work particularly well.

You have to move very differently on the outside than you do on the inside to be effective, the body structure is different, the facing is different, the movement is different, how you generate power is different, etc. For example, on the outside it is more effective to have your elbows outside of your body line and this facilitates throwing punches from the outside in (like boxers). On the inside, it is more effective to have your elbows inside your body line and this facilitates throwing punches differently.

[LSWCTN1]

Ah, no. WCK isn't "using the nearest weapons to hit the nearest target" -- this is Bruce's "concept" from JKD. .

i would disagree, kinda...

WSL was ridiculed for using knees to the head of a bowed opponent, until he pointed out to his classmates that this was the closest weapon to his target.

i would suggest that we do use the closest weapon, just not necessarily in the straight line to the target that is often talked about

[t_niehoff]

I am at a point where I look at the result, or what I call "same result."

Very good point.

When you are result-oriented, then you are looking at things from a skill perspective -- as "skill" is defined as your ability to bring about a desired RESULT with max certainty and min time/effort.