How many form at the origin of CLF Kung Fu

[Sunyang]

Hello to everybody!
Could be a very interesting question to answer this....how many forms there were at the origin....how and who has inserted after?!
Anybody would like to help this thread with his opinion?
It's not for flame, it's only for learn!
SY

[hskwarrior]

I don't think anyone really knows. the forms were never documented in those days, and not all of the forms of the chan family came from chan heung. his students would create new forms and then share it with his CLF brothers.

[Sunyang]

I don't think anyone really knows. the forms were never documented in those days, and not all of the forms of the chan family came from chan heung. his students would create new forms and then share it with his CLF brothers.

Hi brother Frank, this is what I have always thought I also....but as we can prove it without historical documents?
Why lot of people (and Shifu too) want allocated of all the forms to Chan Heung?
Politic?Power?Publicity?
As say extrajoseph in another post?!?!

These may be the original forms of CLF?

"Eight Principal Forms of Choy Li Fut

By
Gm Doc-Fai Wong
中 文 按 此
After Chan Heung founded Choy Li Fut in 1836, he also actively participated in the anti-Manchurian government revolution. He spent a lot of effort training a group of students to get involved with the activities of the revolution. In 1848 Chan Heung set up 18 schools branched out all over the Guangdong and Guangxi provinces of Southern China. At that time, Hong Xiu Quan started the Taiping Rebellion and was the leader. He wanted to establish a new dynasty called the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. Because the Taiping Rebellion started, Chan Heung used eight Chinese characters to created eight major Choy Li Fut hand forms. Those were: Tai, Ping, Tian, Guo, Chang, An, Wan, Nian , which means “long live the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.” Chan Heung taught these eight forms to his students and encouraged them to participate in the revolutionary activities. In 1851 the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom was established. Fourteen years later in 1864, this new kingdom was perished by the Manchus. The Manchurian government wanted to clean up all the political criminals. At that time, all the people involved with the revolution wanted to avoid the Manchu’s execution by hiding. The names of these eight hand forms have been changed because of this reason. Nowadays, these eight principal choy li fut hand forms' original names have gradually been forgotten in the system and most people thought these forms were lost.
Tai, which means Grand or Supreme, represented the name of the hand form Taijo Kuen (Supreme Ancestor Hand Form) which was mainly to commemorate the first emperor of the Ming Dynasty, Zhu Yuan Zhang. Because it was asscoiated with the revolution, later on Chan Heung changed the form's name to Tai Hui (Tai Xu) Kuen or the Supreme Emptiness Hand Form. This form consisted of the Yin and Yang principle. That is hard carrying soft energy and soft carrying hard energy. Later on in Xinhui, there was a kung fu system that came from northern China called Tai Hoi Kuen. The Choy Li Fut founder's family didn't want the future generations to believe that our hand form had something to do with that kung fu system. Therefore the name was changed to Mo Gik (Wuji) Kuen or the Ultimate Less Hand Form. Nowadays, not many people know of this hand form anymore. They might think it’s the Tai Jee Kuen (The Character of Tai Hand Form) which some Choy Li Fut schools recently teach.
Ping, the meanings are Level, Flat, to pacify or to settle. The original name of this form was called Ping Moon Kuen. It means to pacify the Manchurian government and restore the dynasty back to the Han Chinese. Gradually the name was shortened to Ping Kuen (Level Form). The real name of this form has slowly become unknown. There is another hand form in the Choy Li Fut system called the Ping Jang Kuen (Conflict Settlement Form). Many people thought this is the same form as Ping Kuen. Actually, there is a big difference of techniques and movements between these two forms. The Ping Jang Kuen is another hand form of the system.
Tian (Cantonese Tin), means Sky or Heaven. The original name of this form was called Tin Dei Sup Fang Kuen, which means The Ten Directions of Heaven and Earth Form. Because the name was too long, it was shortened to Tin Dei Kuen or the Heaven and Earth Form. There was a revolutionary society named “Heaven and Earth” for anti-Qing Dynasty government. Therefore the name of this form was changed to Sup Jee Kuen or the Cross Pattern Hand Form, same as Sup Jee Kau Da Kuen. When the Siu Sup Jee Kuen or the Small Cross Pattern Form was added to the system, the original form’s name was then changed to Dai Sup Jee Kuen or Large Cross Pattern Form.
Guo (Cantonese Gwok), means the State or Country. The real name of this form was Gwok Fa Kuen or the National Flower Hand Form. For thousands of years in China, the peony is the national flower. However during the revolution of anti-Manchurian, the national flower was changed to be the plum flower. That meant the comrades of the revolutionary must have the spirit of the plum blossom because the Chinese are tough, hard working and also able to take pain just like the plum blossom growing in the snow and ice. Therefore the Gwok Fa Kuen was changed to Mui Fa Kuen or Plum Blossom Hand Form. Fa Kuen or Blossom Form is the short name for this form. Later the Siu Mui Fa Kuen or the Small Plum Blossom Hand Form was added to the system. The name of the original form was changed to Dai Mui Fa Kuen or the Large Plum Blossom Hand Form. It also is called Mui Fa Bot Gwa Kuen or Plum Blossom Bagua Hand Form. Some people heard about this form and thought it's the Gwok Jee Kuen or the Gwok Character Hand Form and because they have never learned this form, they created their own form called Gwok Jee Kuen. It was based on the look of the Gwok character's squared shape and made the form's footwork moving around in a square format.
Chang (Cantonese Cheong) means long. Most people called it Cheong Kuen, or in Mandarin, Chang Quan. This is not the Northern system of “Taizu Changquan.” There is no relationship with the Taizu Changquan” at all. The original name of this form was called Cheong Gong Dai Long Kuen or the Big Waves of Yangtze River Hand Form. This name symbolized the ambition of the Chinese people like the Yangtze River's strong waves over throwing the anti Manchurian government. The name of the form was too long and later changed to Cheong Kuen or Long Fist Form, also known as Tit Jin Kuen or Iron Arrow Hand Form. Some people combined the names together and called it Tit Jin Cheong Kuen or Iron Arrow Long Fist Form.
An (Cantonese On), means Security. This hand form's original name was On Bang Kuen or To Secure the Nation Hand Form. It means that China should be settled down after the revolution. Later, it was changed to Hung Yen Kuen or the Hung's People Hand Form. The Hung Yen was the same as the Chinese Freemasons who were practicing Choy Li Fut for the revolutionary purpose. Because the name had the anti-government meaning, the Chinese character was later changed but has the same Cantonese sound which means “strong or masculine”. It is also called Hung Yen Bagua Hand Form.
Wan (Cantonese Man), normally means 10,000. The formal name was Man Jeong Kuen or the 10,000 Shapes hand form. The phrase Man Jeong Gang Sun means everything in the universe will become new. At that time, the Chinese hoped that when the revolution is successful, China will change to a new scene and a new lifestyle of living. Man Jeong also means 10,000 elephants. Because of this meaning, some school have a hand form called the Ten Thousand Elephants Hand Form. The Chan family saw this funny name and therefore changed its name to Bot Gwa Kuen or the Bagua Hand Form, which all things in the universe are within the five elements of bagua philosophy. Later on there was a Siu Bot Gwa Kuen or the Small Bagua Hand Form. The original hand form changed to call the Dai Bot Gwa Kuen or the Large Bagua Hand Form. Some Choy Li Fut schools have a hand form called Man Jee Kuen (the Man Character's Hand form) which was also originally from this character that meant 10,000.
Nian (Cantonese Nin), means Years. Many people misunderstood this hand form which was named Nin Jee Kuen or the Nin Character Hand Form. Actually this form's name was called the Nin Zhang Kuen or the Elderly Hand Form. When a person became a senior citizen or elderly, their hair should turn grey or white. Therefore this form was later renamed Bak Mo Kuen or the White Hair Hand Form. The Chinese wished for the revolution to be successful and to overthrow the Manchurian government so that all citizens can live peacefully until all their hair turned white with longevity.
In addition, Choy Li Fut has many hand forms. The above mentioned eight principal hand forms were the most widely taught in the old days. The order of teaching sequence did not go by the order of these eight Chinese characters. All the above information that I received was from my teacher Great-Grandmaster Hu Yuen Chou. Hu did the interviews from his teachers Chan Ngau Sing, Chan Yiu Chi and other Choy Li Fut seniors when he was young. The new generations don't know much about this information anymore. Therefore, I am educating the public by writing this to pass down for the future generations as historical information.

[soulfist]

Thats what Doc Fai Wong wrote? His research and understanding is quite poor. That above is even a further exaggeration of the same story he told in his little orange book long ago... seems he really wants to tell the world why he doesnt have something that others do!

There are 8 original hand forms from Jeung Hung Sing. Not forgotten, just not found by Wong. When people cant access something they have a way of saying its trivial or fabricated.

Taai Ji Keun is actually Taai Hui Keun? BS
Ping Ji Keun is actually Ping Jaang Keun? BS
Tin Ji Keun is actually Sup Ji Kau Da? BS
Gok Ji Keun is actually Mui Fa Keun? BS

Cheung refers to Tit Jin Cheung Keun? BS
On refers to Hung Yan Baat Gwa Keun? BS
Maan refers to Siu and Daai Baat Gwa Keun? BS
Nin refers to Bak Mo Keun? BS

First he said these forms were fabricated by recent generations...
Now he says they did exist but are actually Chan Family forms!

First he said it was just a story by the fictitious Yim Fut Saan Yan...
Now he says its a true account from Hu Yuen Chou!

Hu learned this from Chan Ngau Sing he says? Well My lineage is from the successor of Chan Ngau Sing and we say BS!

Is Doc Fai Wong saying that Chan Heung's CLF is made up of disguised Jeung Hung Sing forms? What does a legitimate Chan Family representative have to say about that?



There are no 2 forms shared between Jeung's CLF and Chan's CLF. This is a fact! Not the name, and not the form!

Here is the Choi Lei Fut that Doc Fai Wong promotes, it should give an understanding into what he considers kung fu to be!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGkBc52ajEI

[Sunyang]

Thats what Doc Fai Wong wrote? His research and understanding is quite poor. That above is even a further exaggeration of the same story he told in his little orange book long ago... seems he really wants to tell the world why he doesnt have something that others do!

There are 8 original hand forms from Jeung Hung Sing. Not forgotten, just not found by Wong. When people cant access something they have a way of saying its trivial or fabricated.

Taai Ji Keun is actually Taai Hui Keun? BS
Ping Ji Keun is actually Ping Jaang Keun? BS
Tin Ji Keun is actually Sup Ji Kau Da? BS
Gok Ji Keun is actually Mui Fa Keun? BS

Cheung refers to Tit Jin Cheung Keun? BS
On refers to Hung Yan Baat Gwa Keun? BS
Maan refers to Siu and Daai Baat Gwa Keun? BS
Nin refers to Bak Mo Keun? BS

First he said these forms were fabricated by recent generations...
Now he says they did exist but are actually Chan Family forms!

First he said it was just a story by the fictitious Yim Fut Saan Yan...
Now he says its a true account from Hu Yuen Chou!

Hu learned this from Chan Ngau Sing he says? Well My lineage is from the successor of Chan Ngau Sing and we say BS!

Is Doc Fai Wong saying that Chan Heung's CLF is made up of disguised Jeung Hung Sing forms? What does a legitimate Chan Family representative have to say about that?



There are no 2 forms shared between Jeung's CLF and Chan's CLF. This is a fact! Not the name, and not the form!

Here is the Choi Lei Fut that Doc Fai Wong promotes, it should give an understanding into what he considers kung fu to be!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGkBc52ajEI

I agree with you!!
Could you please write your (BS) history version about how many form and wich come from Chan Heung?!
If Frank agree I would like to post a interview by Shifu Gary Sambroke about CLF history development....


SY

[soulfist]

My BS history version about Chan Heung's forms? I honestly dont know and they will never tell nor confirm. Each publication over the years from the Chan Family is different. I have copies saying 128 forms, then later 148 forms, and most recent is "over 190 forms". What is most original from them? I guess the things that are most common among different schools, and especially the foundational forms Id think.

All I know is that what you posted from Doc Fai Wong is pure rubbish! In that one article he utterly disgraced both branches of CLF! Saying that Chan style is made up of Jeung's material, and that Jeung's original material no longer exists within its own branch! And he claims that this was the words from Chan Yiu Chi and Chan Ngau Sing!

Where did you find that gem anyway?

[Sunyang]

My BS history version about Chan Heung's forms? I honestly dont know and they will never tell nor confirm. Each publication over the years from the Chan Family is different. I have copies saying 128 forms, then later 148 forms, and most recent is "over 190 forms". What is most original from them? I guess the things that are most common among different schools, and especially the foundational forms Id think.

All I know is that what you posted from Doc Fai Wong is pure rubbish! In that one article he utterly disgraced both branches of CLF! Saying that Chan style is made up of Jeung's material, and that Jeung's original material no longer exists within its own branch! And he claims that this was the words from Chan Yiu Chi and Chan Ngau Sing!

Where did you find that gem anyway?

In the DFW website http://plumblossom.net/Grandmaster/eight-principal.html
I post it only for speak about it, I'm not from DFW school, I'm from Lee Koon Hung school but I would like to discuss with you about CLF history, in our curriculum we have only 48 set included fighting set, hand set and weapon set.
I think that 48 forms are already so many... if not too many... let alone 190

SY

[extrajoseph]

T
There are no 2 forms shared between Jeung's CLF and Chan's CLF. This is a fact! Not the name, and not the form!

Here is a video of Peng Ji Kuen performed by Chiu Kwong-Yuan (Futsan Hung Sing CLF)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ41E...eature=related

Followed by a video of Peng Kuen performed by Chen Yong-Fa (King Mui Hung Sing CLF)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIHhh...eature=related

What are so different between the two? None, they are both unmistakeably CLF with some stylistic variations.

The names of the forms we gave to them and the sequence of the forms don’t matter, nor the beginning and the finishing movements. We share the same seeds and the same origin, and we belong to the same stem and the same roots of the same tree.

[extrajoseph]

I post it only for speak about it, I'm not from DFW school, I'm from Lee Koon Hung school but I would like to discuss with you about CLF history, in our curriculum we have only 48 set included fighting set, hand set and weapon set.

I think that 48 forms are already so many... if not too many... let alone 190
SY

Hi Sunyang,

It is never meant for a student to learn all of the hundreds of forms, the idea is to specialize according to one's abilities and later on cross train with each other, below is how Chen Yong-Fa described his Grandfather Chan Yiu-Chi' teaching method:

"A part of Yiu Chi’s approach to teaching was to have pupils follow a program that got the best results according to daily activity, body types, mental and physical abilities. For example his pupils in the unions do physical labor and already have many of the basic strength skills so he would teach forms/weapons that advance their co-ordination.

Opposed to a middle school were his students are younger and may not have developed physical strength but a great aptitude to understanding physics so his focus is on forms that teach speed and subtle attacks as opposed to brute strength.

Yiu Chi has over 80 recorded disciples that are considered long term students within these there are 3 groups. Each group learnt the Choy Lee Fut system but Yiu Chi had them focus/specialize in certain "essences of CLF".

Group 1 was known as the Four Great Heavenly Kings. These 4 disciples were renowned for their focus on Gung (power), Qi (energy), Fai (speed), and mastery of the bak gwa techniques

Group 2 was known as "War Hap Yee Sing" (Uniting Together of the Immortals). These disciples developed and focused on Qi (internal energy), Yum Yern Gung (soft and hard power), Fai (speed), and bak gwa directional changing

Group 3 was known as "Yee Sup Sei Sing Suks" (24 Immortal Uncles). All these were assistant instructors and focused on mastering the 3 levels of instruction with fist, weapon and dummy forms divided into primary, intermediate and advanced.

This system enabled Yiu Chi to teach vast numbers of people Choy Lee Fut in his later life. Concentrating and mastering a particular skill and then helping your brothers to understand that same skill is its self a great cross training system within our Choy Lee fut system that Yiu Chi introduced.

There is just not enough time to learn the entire 200 plus forms that teach all the executions and techniques in our working lives. However Yiu Chi having made a standard approach with specialization enables the pupils to maximize their learning abilities."

XJ

[soulfist]

Extrajoseph, that means that you agree with Doc Fai Wong right? You support that Chan Family CLF is made up of Jeung Hung Sing's forms? Interesting you should say so!


So the sequence of the moves doesnt matter, only the moves themselves? Are not all of the over 190 forms of your clan just the same moves in different sequences?

[extrajoseph]

Hi Soulfist,

What I tried to say is that CLF, no matter what branch one belonged to, is made of a core set of the same "seeds" and from these seeds, different forms are made up.

For example all these letters that you and I wrote here are made of the same 26 alphabets and with 26 alphabets we can make up a lot of words, so with even 10 "seeds" we can make up many CLF forms.

XJ

[soulfist]

Yes I know what you were trying to say and agree with you wholeheartedly. I also prefer blonds to brunettes. But a matter is that you also deflected the question and the issue. Is this a topic perhaps that we shouldnt pursue?

[JAZA]

Soulfist, Where does DFW says original forms are made up of Jeung Yim? May be I may be have reading comprehension issues.

[hskwarrior]

First he said these forms were fabricated by recent generations...
Now he says they did exist but are actually Chan Family forms!

Think about it. First he claimed that Ching Cho was nothing more than a myth, then claims that he discovered that Choy Fook was really Ching Cho!!!!!!!!!!

[hskwarrior]

Sun,

IF you have the SHOCKING REVELATIONS article...please post it up.