How many form at the origin of CLF Kung Fu

[hskwarrior]

What are so different between the two? None, they are both unmistakeably CLF with some stylistic variations.

The names of the forms we gave to them and the sequence of the forms don’t matter, nor the beginning and the finishing movements. We share the same seeds and the same origin, and we belong to the same stem and the same roots of the same tree.

Joseph, you're SO full of it!!!!!!! The two sets you posted are NOT the same. We don't share any sequences of moves, nor sections that are found in the Chan Fam Ping Kuen. Stylistic Variations? if you placed a Hung Sing and a Chan Family student together to perform these two forms it is utterly clear that they are NOT the same in ANY WAY.

[hskwarrior]

It is never meant for a student to learn all of the hundreds of forms, the idea is to specialize according to one's abilities and later on cross train with each other, below is how Chen Yong-Fa described his Grandfather Chan Yiu-Chi' teaching method:

For one, why have so many forms that share the same grouping of techniques? why not just have ONE form with all of the right stuff in them? its very sad that it is insinuated that Chan Heung created 190 forms when even the Chan Family know is a lie.

[soulfist]

What does DFW mean? Is that a place... its just unclear to me what is being said!

Sorry for the sarcasm but it was earned. In the passage posted above it said that Chan Heung created those 8 forms yes. I forget what the former version of this in his book said as I dont have it handy right now. But those are known as the 8 forms of Jeung Yim that he passed on to his followers. You know that Jeung Yim knew and passed on 8 forms that are in fact the core of any school or practitioner who does Hung Sing CLF?

If Chan Heung expanded these 8 forms into his CLF then that is saying that his CLF is spawned by Jeung Yim... if you agree with the story then you agree with this.

If you dont believe these 8 came from Jeung Yim you can easily find several separate lineages of his art that developed in different countries independently of one another who have kept the core intact.

DFW took the names of Jeung Yim's forms and manipulated them into names of forms known under Chan Family CLF. Those original forms, or at least the names, do still exist as is in schools of Hung Sing. So, from this you can chose to believe 1 of 2 things:

1) Hung Sing practitioners are practicing new forms and not what Jeung Yim actually taught. In which case you believe that Chan Family CLF grew out of Jeung Yims art!

or

2) Doc Fai Wong is full of baloney! In which case Chan Heung created his own material and his students follow his teaching and what it grew into. And Hung Sing people from Jeung Yim practice their own art in the exact same manner.

If you agree with the 1 then you say both schools have lied about the source of the material they are made up of. Extrajoseph seems to agree with this but has yet to comment as to why.

[Sunyang]

Hi Sunyang,

It is never meant for a student to learn all of the hundreds of forms, the idea is to specialize according to one's abilities and later on cross train with each other, below is how Chen Yong-Fa described his Grandfather Chan Yiu-Chi' teaching method:

"A part of Yiu Chi’s approach to teaching was to have pupils follow a program that got the best results according to daily activity, body types, mental and physical abilities. For example his pupils in the unions do physical labor and already have many of the basic strength skills so he would teach forms/weapons that advance their co-ordination.

Opposed to a middle school were his students are younger and may not have developed physical strength but a great aptitude to understanding physics so his focus is on forms that teach speed and subtle attacks as opposed to brute strength.

Yiu Chi has over 80 recorded disciples that are considered long term students within these there are 3 groups. Each group learnt the Choy Lee Fut system but Yiu Chi had them focus/specialize in certain "essences of CLF".

Group 1 was known as the Four Great Heavenly Kings. These 4 disciples were renowned for their focus on Gung (power), Qi (energy), Fai (speed), and mastery of the bak gwa techniques

Group 2 was known as "War Hap Yee Sing" (Uniting Together of the Immortals). These disciples developed and focused on Qi (internal energy), Yum Yern Gung (soft and hard power), Fai (speed), and bak gwa directional changing

Group 3 was known as "Yee Sup Sei Sing Suks" (24 Immortal Uncles). All these were assistant instructors and focused on mastering the 3 levels of instruction with fist, weapon and dummy forms divided into primary, intermediate and advanced.

This system enabled Yiu Chi to teach vast numbers of people Choy Lee Fut in his later life. Concentrating and mastering a particular skill and then helping your brothers to understand that same skill is its self a great cross training system within our Choy Lee fut system that Yiu Chi introduced.

There is just not enough time to learn the entire 200 plus forms that teach all the executions and techniques in our working lives. However Yiu Chi having made a standard approach with specialization enables the pupils to maximize their learning abilities."

XJ

Extrajoseph, I understand wath you say but I created this topic for another reason, I would like to trace a line from now to the beginning, and try to understand wath Chan Heung or Jeung Yim used to teach, wich forms.
Now, DFW try to say what all CLF forms come from Chan Heung, all written texts that he have come from Chan Heung.....I belive this is a lie.
In my country (Italy) many people don't know the History of CLF and lot of them think that DCF have the truth.
I would like only to speak about the origin of CLF for try to understand and after left something interesting for the future generation.

Sorry for my poor english....

SY

[Sunyang]

GSHAMBROOKE
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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CHOY LAY FUT HISTORY
Ok personally i love this, some people are not going to like it, some people may be shocked, whatever i dont really care i might even make some new enemies, nothing new there.


A couple of days ago an ex student of mine who i havent seen for a few years but we stay in contact on face book invited me over to catch up so i said no problem, he also set up my web site for me because he is a bit of a computer wiz.

Anyway when i was there he produced a file with a load of histoy on CLF and the Buck Sing Gwoon that Master David lacey, Myself, a very dedicated senior kung fu brother Nick Lizos and another lower level student of my sifus Micheal Coombah that was a part time freelance journalist spent years investigating and i had completely forgotten about.


http://www.buksing.com/history/lun_tse/l_t_1.html
Attachment 19731 Attachment 19732
Master Lun Tse the last living student of The Founder of the CLFBSG

Anyway this guy Lun Tse was the last student alive of Tarm Sarms he died a few years ago but i had the pleasure of meeting him back in March 1998 he came to Melbourne and we picked him up brought him to our school and put on a bit of a show and took him out to a resturant and all that, we also paid for a couple of interpreters because he did not speak any english and he said anything you want to know just ask me so this is what we documented this is exactly the same account of Choy Lay Fut history that Sigung Kong Hing gave us in Hong Kong.
Attachment 19734
Grandmaster Kong Hing in his house in Hong Kong

Visit by Sisuk Dai Gung Lun Tse to the Choy Lay Fut Buck Sing Gwoon Melbourne Australia with autobiographical stories, extensive biographical anecdotes on the founder Tarm Sarm and is contempories.

Including also-

A series of shock relevations concerning the origin and primary development of Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu.

March 27th 1998.
As recorded by Dai Si Hing Gary Shambrooke And Seinior Student Nick Lizos and a lower level student part time freelance journalist Michael Coombah of the CLFBSG.

Sisuk Dai Gung is now 88 and will turn 89 this year in september. He is residing in Calgary Canada. He has many relatives there, some in Sydney Australia that he doesn't really know and a nephew here in Melbourne Victoria.
Originally from Guangzhou, he began learning Kung Fu at the age of 13.
He and his friends were eager to learn so they went to a famous master, they approched a renowned Kung Fu exponent in the city- Master Tarm Sarm.
Tarm Sarm began teaching the boys Choy Lay Fut- it would be the only style that Lun Tse would ever learn.
Of those 16 students he is now the only living survivor.
It was largely on the urging of these students that Tarm Sarm accepted the title of Sifu.


In these times Lun Tse took the lead in giving a beating to the many students of other styles that came forward to challenge him and his brothers.
He was "Always the first" but around the time of his move to Canada (1975) he began to follow the path of a gentlemen
He moved to Hong Kong in the 30s as the Japanese advanced through China and began to establish himself in buisiness selling seafood.
After the war Lun Tse returned to Guangzhou which saw he and his friends caught up in the struggles between local communists and supporters of the Nationalists.
He and some fellow students saw alot of action, usually with weapons and sometimes with fatalities on either side.
Lun Tse and his friends did well with their participation in these battles which earnt them around $5.00 per day.
After the communists victory he moved back to Hong Kong.


In all his life Lun Tse has only really trained six students, but did teach some middle aged students in Canada who were learning Kung Fu to maintain health and fitness.
None of his six students ever really set up schools but only a few in Canada.


In conversatin Sisuk Dai Gung stresses that we should respect other styles of Kung Fu and that we are fortunate to train in Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut as it is scarcely Taught anywhere today.


Grand Master Tarm Sarm the fouder of the Choy Lay Fut Buck Sing Gwoon.
Attachment 19735

Tarm Sarm was not just a great fighter but also a cultured individual who studied calligraphy.
He worked as a clerk in Guangzhou as he never could make money from teaching Kung Fu, in fact he only ever managed to pay the schools bills from the schools income.
He had originally learnt Choy Lay Fut from Lui Chan one of Jeung Hung Sings students and he always had a high developmental approch to fighing, constantly looking to improve his Kung Fu techniques.


After the death or disappearance of Jeung Hung Sing many of his students became enraged striking out blindly at people for revenge.
In time this led to a lingering bad reputation for Hung sing Choy Lay Fut, hence Tarm Sarm renamed his school after Siu Buck - the district of Guangzhou in which it was located, he encouraged a seperate identity from the Hung Sing Gwoon.


The separation in technical terms became distinct after his meeting with Buck Siu Lum Master Ku yi Cheung.
Both these figures had heard of each other's expertise before they met which they did when Ku Yi Cheung came to Guangzhou to set up a school.
He agreed to a friendly sparring session with Tarm Sarm.
In this match neither could better the other and the end result was that the two decided to pool their students and exchange some technques.

Northern Shaolin Master Ku Yi Cheung

Tarm Sarm died at the age of 69 from a disease which was incurable - at least under the circumstances of the day.
He could not obtain adequate medical help to ensure his survival.
Tarm Sarms anniversary is celebrated on the 24th of december in the chinese calendar.


The Origin And Foundation Of Choy Lay Fut.


Chan Heung never learnt Kung Fu.
Being a clan teacher in King mui village he chose to take in Jeong Yim.
This young man was in actual or potential trouble from the Manchu authorities possibly for avoiding conscription.
Chan Heung began to teach the young man calligraphy and literature which led him being given the title Sifu.
Jeong Yim - who may already have been known as Jeong Hung Sing - was then taught Kung Fu by the Shaolin Monks Lay Yau San, Choy Ah **** and Ching Cho.
This Kung Fu he was Learning was Called Fut Gar and it came directly from the Shaolin temple.


By the time Jeong Hung Sing had trained under these three masters his Kung Fu had become somewhat distinct.
Observers would say that some techniques resembled those of Lau Gar, others resembled Choy Gar and naturally much remained of the roots in Fut Gar.
Jeong Hung Sing decided to name his style after the combined names of these styles (CHOY LAY FUT).
It is important to note that the three forms known today as the three Buck Sing forms were taught to Jeong Hung Sing by his masters and he was possibly not taught any weapons.


Having formulated and named this new Kung Fu Jeong Hung Sing Decided To head for the city of Fut San to establish and teach it.
Before leaving however he taught Choy Lay Fut to Chan Koon Pak who taught Chan Yiu Chi and established the lineage that survived in Sun Wui town and district and continues to Chan Yong Fa in Sydney Australia.
Once his Gwoon Was established in Futsan Jeong Hung Sing taught Lui Chan who in turn taught Tarm Sarm.
This is the lineage of true Choy Lay Fut that was established in Guanghou.


Jeong Hung Sing in the end becomes a mystery - no portrait or photograph of him was known to have ever existed and the man himself apparently disapeared.


NOTE: This history of Choy Lay Fut was outlined to myself Michael Coombah and one of my senior instructors Nick Lizos in Hong Kong only weeks ago.
It was given to us in breif by Sigung Kong Hing at his home in Kowloon Hong Kong and he stated clearly that Fut San was the home of Choy La Fut.
At the time of our visit a new Choy Lay Fut association was being formed that would propagate this true history.


Now i Dai Si Hing Gary Shambrooke asked Grandmaster Lun Tse the last surviving student of Tarm Sarm this exact question and this is what he said.

Master Lun Tse told me and this is word for word, the most commonly known history of Choy Lay Fut is not correct, many people beleive that Chan Heurng was not the founder of Choy Lay Fut and that he only planted the seed of its true development.
Jeong Hung Sing one of Chan Heurngs short term students is really credited to developing the Choy Lay Fut Hung Sing style to the deadly and leathal level of skill that it has today.
Lun Tse says that really the first Hung Sing Gwoon was opend in Fut San.

I asked him him and i quote, so Master Lun Tse are you saying that Master Chan Heurng did not really develop the art of Choy Lay Fut.

He said to me and i quote, No! Chan Heurng was not a Kung Fu Master, he was a scholar it was Jeong Hung Sing that really developed Choy Lay Fut.

If there are people that do not agree with me i do not care, i am quoting word for word exactly what the last surviving top student of Great grand Master Tarm Sarm champion of the north said, not many peole can say that they have actualy talked Kung Fu history with a student of Tarm Sarms, it was a great honour.

[Sunyang]

Hi Soulfist,

What I tried to say is that CLF, no matter what branch one belonged to, is made of a core set of the same "seeds" and from these seeds, different forms are made up.

Ok, I agree with you, wath are these "core set"....is the same opinion of Shifu Wong Chi Yuen, I spoke with him during his visit to my Shifu in italy last October and in his opinion the "core set" are very few....

SY

[Sunyang]

For one, why have so many forms that share the same grouping of techniques? why not just have ONE form with all of the right stuff in them? its very sad that it is insinuated that Chan Heung created 190 forms when even the Chan Family know is a lie.

Brother, this is the focus of this thread!!!
I would like to give an answer to this question....and about the 190 forms....

SY

[hskwarrior]

Sun Yang,

coming from the Chan Yong Fa branch itself Chan Heung didn't create all of the forms. they also said that chan heung's students in the beginning would create forms and they would spread out between the lineage. they also said that none of the forms were actually documented when they were created.

Joseph even stated that Chan Koon Pak created the Copper Man Dummy and that Chan Yiu Chi created Tai Gik Kuen i believe it was. so see, not all forms were created by chan heung.

[Sunyang]

Sun Yang,

coming from the Chan Yong Fa branch itself Chan Heung didn't create all of the forms. they also said that chan heung's students in the beginning would create forms and they would spread out between the lineage. they also said that none of the forms were actually documented when they were created.

Joseph even stated that Chan Koon Pak created the Copper Man Dummy and that Chan Yiu Chi created Tai Gik Kuen i believe it was. so see, not all forms were created by chan heung.

Brother Frank,
It's not the same explanation given by DFW...and some of his student...they spoke about "...DFW have all the original manuscript from Chan Heung on which are recorded all the sequences of stile including the various Mook Yang Jong...."

SY

[extrajoseph]

Extrajoseph, I understand wath you say but I created this topic for another reason, I would like to trace a line from now to the beginning, and try to understand wath Chan Heung or Jeung Yim used to teach, wich forms.
Now, DFW try to say what all CLF forms come from Chan Heung, all written texts that he have come from Chan Heung.....I belive this is a lie.
In my country (Italy) many people don't know the History of CLF and lot of them think that DCF have the truth.
I would like only to speak about the origin of CLF for try to understand and after left something interesting for the future generation.

Sorry for my poor english....

SY

Hi SY,

DFW is not wrong, Chan Heung, after studying with 3 teachers, put together the foundation and the core for the CLF system and organized its rapid spread with the help of his students and disciple, Jeung Ah-Yim amongst one of them, but Chan Heung could not have invented all the forms at once, subsequence family descendants and his disciples also contributed to the development of the CLF forms and adding more forms as the time went by.

When his disciples moved out in all directions they begin also to develop and to refine their skills on their own, sometimes they meet up with teachers from other styles and integrated their CLF with the new skills and a hybrid form of CLF also developed. Bak-Sing is a good example, but it is still CLF.

Some teachers like to concentrate on fighting, so they tended not to teach too many form and worked on the Sanshou instead, their students then tended to have less forms to teach but usually good at the hard-core, beat-the-$hit-out-out-of-you combinations.

So you see, CLF is a living tradition, it grows and changes throughout time, but the foundation and the core of our system was invented by Chan Heung and remained much the same and that is why when you see someone doing CLF, you can tell it straight away.

As to the written words, every generations write down their and the Chen family also keeps theirs, because they are the descendants of Chan Heung and there is a whole clan of them for 5 to 6 generations, they tended to form the largest collections, but that is not to say Futsan or Kong Men don't have them. Frank seems to think only Chan Yiu-Chi wrote manuscripts for the Chan family and that is obviously not true, but he probably wrote the best of them because he was quite a scholar.

Hope this helps,

XJ

[Sunyang]

Hi SY,

DFW is not wrong, Chan Heung, after studying with 3 teachers, put together the foundation and the core for the CLF system and organized its rapid spread with the help of his students and disciple, Jeung Ah-Yim amongst one of them, but Chan Heung could not have invented all the forms at once, subsequence family descendants and his disciples also contributed to the development of the CLF forms and adding more forms as the time went by.

When his disciples moved out in all directions they begin also to develop and to refine their skills on their own, sometimes they meet up with teachers from other styles and integrated their CLF with the new skills and a hybrid form of CLF also developed. Bak-Sing is a good example, but it is still CLF.

Some teachers like to concentrate on fighting, so they tended not to teach too many form and worked on the Sanshou instead, their students then tended to have less forms to teach but usually good at the hard-core, beat-the-$hit-out-out-of-you combinations.

So you see, CLF is a living tradition, it grows and changes throughout time, but the foundation and the core of our system was invented by Chan Heung and remained much the same and that is why when you see someone doing CLF, you can tell it straight away.

As to the written words, every generations write down their and the Chen family also keeps theirs, because they are the descendants of Chan Heung and there is a whole clan of them, they tended to form the largest collections, but that is not to say Futsan or Kong Men don't have them.

Hope this helps,

XJ

Right Joseph, I agree with you, but DFW is wrong when he say that CH created "all" the forms of the system and he have "all" the written document for attempt this!
Now a question for you, what are this foundation and core of the system in your opinion?

Thank's again for your explanation!

SY

[soulfist]

Joseph, are you Doc Fai Wong?

[Sunyang]

Joseph, are you Doc Fai Wong?

SF,
I think Joseph have some relationship with Chan Clan, not DFW!!

SY

[extrajoseph]

Originally Posted by hskwarrior
For one, why have so many forms that share the same grouping of techniques? why not just have ONE form with all of the right stuff in them? its very sad that it is insinuated that Chan Heung created 190 forms when even the Chan Family know is a lie.

Hi Frank,

That is not a lie, when you add everything up (fist forms, two men, three men, four men, weapons, one or two or three men weapons, dummies, lion dances etc. etc ) it is even more than 190. But no one is expect to know them all, each person specializes after the basic training.

Chen Yong-Fa's father Chan Wan-Hon did reduced all of them into 3 fist forms, one for each level, one each for the short, long and flexible weapons, but he died before they were taught properly. So his contribution to the re-organization of CLF forms remained dormant.

XJ

[extrajoseph]

Joseph, are you Doc Fai Wong?

Coming from you, I take this as an insult.