Looking for WSL vs fencer clip

[fan]

this kendo vs escrima matchup might provide some clues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JapMGyUbT68

[wkmark]

WSL was great, and fought numerous street fights and tested out his art, but in an open tournament in Taiwan was carried out on a stretcher. Today's WCK people alleged learn Gaun Sao in Siu Nim Tao because of this. What - Yip Man didn't teach how to overcome a sidekick to the ribcage? How many people think that a Gaun Sao is going to stop a full power sidekick?

Robert,

I was wondering, your purpose of bringing out Sifu's taiwan tournament is???

What is Gaun Sao? Did you mean Karn Sao?? If that is what you are referring to, from what I have learned from Sifu in the past, the Karn Sao was the result of his fight with some Iron Palm guy. Not from the the Sidekick. I believe he had mentioned this in one of his interview.

As for the Taiwan fight, honestly, there are many different versions of the stories. The real truth will only be known by Sifu himself. However we are or (at least I am) not putting Sifu on a pedestal especially knowing the type of person he was. He never advertised or ever admitted that he was good.. He only admitted that he was a practitioner of Ving Tsun. He fought his matches in the past and I am sure he won some and lost some. But the point was he was trying to see what worked and what didn't work for him. But it seemed that you are bringing out the Taiwan fight for a particular reason? Please do share.

I honestly don't really care if Sifu lost for whatever reason at the Taiwan fight, I only cared that Sifu was trying to see what worked and what didn't. What he showed me from his past achievement was that he was human and he was trying to make Ving Tsun work for him.

[YungChun]

lol

Robert you have some good points..

But, I think what you are seeing is that many, many Chunners are desperate to see some actual 'higher level' Chun being performed in whatever the venue.

There are shockingly few examples of higher level Chun being performed, so much so that the idea that it even exists has almost taken on a mythic quality..

While it's true that today's practitioners need to go and find their own kung-fu; it's also true that up and coming Chunners need real functional examples of higher level performance. Those examples have been, and are, sorely lacking..

[Wayfaring]

4. recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve.

And that, is always a good idea. It goes right along with your Ip Man and Hawkins quotes above.

[LoneTiger108]

Sounds incredible, I don't think people in WCK would fare well against a fencer or escrimador.

As always Chu Sifu, you're speaking of yourself here?? Definitely NOT speaking for me

With regards to the WSL/Fencer clip, personally I think this was just a rumour that spread from another event entirely and I will tell you why. As far as I know, and I have had the story verified by a few sources, there was a stand off between a Wing Chun pratitioner and an Olympian Fencer but it definitely wasn't televised.

The WC practitioner actually used two foils against the fencer in a playful sparring session and gained the upper hand. Impressing the fencer so much that he wondered how he could do that when he had never held or used a foil in his life.

The reply was that he had practised the BJD from Wing Chun. The practitioner was not WSL it was someone from the Lee Shing family

[LoneTiger108]

While it's true that today's practitioners need to go and find their own kung-fu; it's also true that up and coming Chunners need real functional examples of higher level performance. Those examples have been, and are, sorely lacking..

Not to be all 'self promoting' and all that, but THIS was one of the reasons I sat with my Kung Fu Brother and started The Yum Yeurng Academy.

We actively search for like minded martial artists who are interested in raising their performance levels. It's something that I believe in very strongly.

If you don't see it, you aint never doing it!

We need more extreme troupes of practitioners that are willing to take their art to the public domain through events and demonstrations that actually do show this 'higher level' of our art.

Fortunately for me, I am surrounded by like minded people as the Lee Shing Family are looking at ways to do this in the UK. The ball has already started to roll after over 50 years lol!

[t_niehoff]

Not to be all 'self promoting' and all that, but THIS was one of the reasons I sat with my Kung Fu Brother and started The Yum Yeurng Academy.

We actively search for like minded martial artists who are interested in raising their performance levels. It's something that I believe in very strongly.

If you don't see it, you aint never doing it!

We need more extreme troupes of practitioners that are willing to take their art to the public domain through events and demonstrations that actually do show this 'higher level' of our art.

Fortunately for me, I am surrounded by like minded people as the Lee Shing Family are looking at ways to do this in the UK. The ball has already started to roll after over 50 years lol!

The higher levels of the art -- in fact ANY art -- can ONLY come by doing loads (we're talking minimum hundreds of hours) sparring/fighting (using your WCK) against very highly skilled people. Essentially that means training/sparring with highly skilled MT, boxers, and MMA fighters (people with proven, very good stand-up skills). Are you doing that? Because if you are not DOING that work but believe you are raising your performance levels to "high levels", then you are just kidding yourself and engaging in fantasy (which is standard in WCK).

[k gledhill]

Terence and the higher levels... lmfao

[LoneTiger108]

Terence and the higher levels... lmfao

For once I agree with you 100%

[LoneTiger108]

The higher levels of the art -- in fact ANY art -- can ONLY come by doing loads (we're talking minimum hundreds of hours) sparring/fighting (using your WCK) against very highly skilled people. Essentially that means training/sparring with highly skilled MT, boxers, and MMA fighters (people with proven, very good stand-up skills). Are you doing that? Because if you are not DOING that work but believe you are raising your performance levels to "high levels", then you are just kidding yourself and engaging in fantasy (which is standard in WCK).

Its funny but the ONE type of person you fail to mention here is highly skilled WCK people Wake up T!! They DO exist but unfortunately they may be avoiding you

[sanjuro_ronin]

Paul,

I love TMA and have been practicing over 41 years now.

But we have to get real. Many of the anecdotes are often overexaggerated. How many of Gu Yu Cheung's descendants can break brick number 16 of a 17 layer stack without spacers? How many can kill a sheep with one slap, let alone a charging horse?

Yip Man fighting 22 Japanese Black Belts in the recent movie is a joke - it never happened, yet how many believe it to be real?

WSL was great, and fought numerous street fights and tested out his art, but in an open tournament in Taiwan was carried out on a stretcher. Today's WCK people alleged learn Gaun Sao in Siu Nim Tao because of this. What - Yip Man didn't teach how to overcome a sidekick to the ribcage? How many people think that a Gaun Sao is going to stop a full power sidekick?

Cold water? We have to get real. Anyone should have the humbleness to accept and learn the truth.

There is a theory of Dunning Kruger (WCK people would do well to look this up, and my citation is from Wikipedia):

"for a given skill, incompetent people will:

1. tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
2. fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
3. fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
4. recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve.

Dunning has since drawn an analogy ("the anosognosia of everyday life")[10][1] to a condition in which a person who suffers a physical disability due to brain injury seems unaware of or denies the existence of the disability, even for dramatic impairments such as blindness or paralysis."

So sad.

I feel your pain...

[sanjuro_ronin]

this kendo vs escrima matchup might provide some clues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JapMGyUbT68

None whatsoever.
Sorry, sticks are NOT blades and a shinais NOT even a stick.
heck I have gone empty hand VS a shinai, no biggie.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As for the Taiwan fight, honestly, there are many different versions of the stories. The real truth will only be known by Sifu himself. However we are or (at least I am) not putting Sifu on a pedestal especially knowing the type of person he was. He never advertised or ever admitted that he was good.. He only admitted that he was a practitioner of Ving Tsun. He fought his matches in the past and I am sure he won some and lost some. But the point was he was trying to see what worked and what didn't work for him. But it seemed that you are bringing out the Taiwan fight for a particular reason? Please do share.

I honestly don't really care if Sifu lost for whatever reason at the Taiwan fight, I only cared that Sifu was trying to see what worked and what didn't. What he showed me from his past achievement was that he was human and he was trying to make Ving Tsun work for him.

I for one love the WSL philosophy of fighting and WC, I read the book and enjoyed it immensely and wish that more WC people would follow his advice and his methodologies.
That said, up until Robert mentioned the Taiwan match I had NO clue that WSL had EVER been beaten, it certainly was never mentioned that I recall.
Maybe that is why Robert mentioned it, because in the middle of all the WSL nutriding, it seems that little note was never mentioned by anyone.

Again, don't get me wrong, I never ASSUMED he was unbeaten, but his "followers" certainly give that impression.

WSL, from what I have seen and read, was an excellent MA and an excellent WC man, it seems though that many of his views never caught one as much as he may have hoped.
Primarily the view of testing your WC VS other systems and not getting ridgidly stuck in what YOU think WC should be, but realising that YOUR WC and someone elses is not and should not, be the same.

[bennyvt]

Im sure the taiwan fight has come up several times on this forum in the past. I have metioned it when talking about the garn sao (I thought that was how you spelled it?). WSL used that in several seminars that I have seen to show not only just the move but that on-one is unbeatable. He also used to use a big scar on his forehead from a knife wound to show that anyone can be beat on their day.
This wasn't about nut ridding. Someone asked if anyone had footage, most of us have said that we have heard about it but not seen it. I asked people in HK when I was there and they said the same sort of thing. And no they weren't all WSL guys.
But I think your giving Robert too much credit.

[t_niehoff]

Its funny but the ONE type of person you fail to mention here is highly skilled WCK people Wake up T!! They DO exist but unfortunately they may be avoiding you

What's amusing -- and disturbing -- is that many of you guys talk about "higher levels of WCK" yet aren't even competent fighters. Almost no one in WCK puts in the work necessary to become a competent fighter. It takes a TON of the right kind of work just to become competent. As my training partner says, "Some people want to move directly to enlightened warrior monk stage yet can't get out of a headlock." Most of you could even hold your own against whitebelt-level MMA or MT fighters.

Where are all these "highly skilled WCK people" -- people who can fight and hold their own with high level fighters -- except in your dreams?

Here is a simple, lead pipe truth: if you are not already doing it, you won't be able to do it. Are you already sparring with and beating whitebelt level MT or MMA fighters? Because if you are not, you won't be able to do it.