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Thread: Looking for WSL vs fencer clip

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    What's amusing -- and disturbing -- is that many of you guys talk about "higher levels of WCK" yet aren't even competent fighters. Almost no one in WCK puts in the work necessary to become a competent fighter. It takes a TON of the right kind of work just to become competent. As my training partner says, "Some people want to move directly to enlightened warrior monk stage yet can't get out of a headlock." Most of you could even hold your own against whitebelt-level MMA or MT fighters.

    Where are all these "highly skilled WCK people" -- people who can fight and hold their own with high level fighters -- except in your dreams?
    Here we go again! I have to say I admire your persistence T, but fighting in a cage really has nothing to do with using the knives or pole and this is the type of 'advanced' Wing Chun people need to see imho.

    If you expect a Wing Chun student to want to fight every day of their lives, or train in such a way that they can 'compete' in such a barbaric sport, then I suggest you return to your kuit that covers Mo Duk

    ANY well conditioned athlete would stand a chance in the ring and what you're constantly implying is that none of us WCK practitioners are athletes. Again, I suggest you get out more and actually 'meet' some of us But we all know that aint going to happen because you are in your own dream world yourself imo.

    And what I really wanted to say on THIS thread is that the WCK guy that fought the fencer WAS NOT Wong Shun Leung!!??

    Why not try to contribute to that??
    Ti Fei
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkmark View Post
    Robert,

    I was wondering, your purpose of bringing out Sifu's taiwan tournament is???

    What is Gaun Sao? Did you mean Karn Sao?? If that is what you are referring to, from what I have learned from Sifu in the past, the Karn Sao was the result of his fight with some Iron Palm guy. Not from the the Sidekick. I believe he had mentioned this in one of his interview.

    As for the Taiwan fight, honestly, there are many different versions of the stories. The real truth will only be known by Sifu himself. However we are or (at least I am) not putting Sifu on a pedestal especially knowing the type of person he was. He never advertised or ever admitted that he was good.. He only admitted that he was a practitioner of Ving Tsun. He fought his matches in the past and I am sure he won some and lost some. But the point was he was trying to see what worked and what didn't work for him. But it seemed that you are bringing out the Taiwan fight for a particular reason? Please do share.

    I honestly don't really care if Sifu lost for whatever reason at the Taiwan fight, I only cared that Sifu was trying to see what worked and what didn't. What he showed me from his past achievement was that he was human and he was trying to make Ving Tsun work for him.
    WKmark,

    Perhaps we heard different stories. I don't recall there being an iron palm match. I was told the Gaun (yes, "Karn" for you in Australia) was because of a sidekick to the ribcage. And the anecdote that I was told about adding Gaun Sao in Siu Nim Tao against a side kick is ridiculous.

    Equally ridiculous is if people think they can learn a knife set and fight against a top fencer (and not a scrub), they'd better rethink.

    My point is anecdotes often become exaggerated with each story's telling...Ku Yu Cheong, Leung Shum, many others...

    I think WSL was great, and your posting confirms his character, as I know it.

    Far too much nut-riding here at times. People just gotta know he was a guy working things out for himself. Nut-riding is when there is association with a famous dude and you're basking in his glory for something you can't or didn't do. Heck, some people here who don't know the knives are saying what?

    I'm still waiting for the next Kyokushin dude who can snap horns off a bull, and kill one with his bare hands.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    ANY well conditioned athlete would stand a chance in the ring and what you're constantly implying is that none of us WCK practitioners are athletes. Again, I suggest you get out more and actually 'meet' some of us But we all know that aint going to happen because you are in your own dream world yourself imo.
    If it was just that then there should be more WCK fighters in the ring. The statistics just don't bear out your thinking on this. Conditioning is sport specific. If you want to fight in the ring then your training needs to reflect the format of the event.

    And what I really wanted to say on THIS thread is that the WCK guy that fought the fencer WAS NOT Wong Shun Leung!!??

    Why not try to contribute to that??
    In this big wide world there may have been more than one WCK practitioner sparring with a fencer.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    lol

    Robert you have some good points..

    But, I think what you are seeing is that many, many Chunners are desperate to see some actual 'higher level' Chun being performed in whatever the venue.

    There are shockingly few examples of higher level Chun being performed, so much so that the idea that it even exists has almost taken on a mythic quality..

    While it's true that today's practitioners need to go and find their own kung-fu; it's also true that up and coming Chunners need real functional examples of higher level performance. Those examples have been, and are, sorely lacking..
    Jim,

    Why the desperation?

    WCK people can train with blindfolds, have inch power, can control a person's center of gravity, trap both of their hands, tie up and trap another's legs, strike a jong with full power, use softness to control hardness, and use devastating palm and fist strikes at short distance. These are all within the realm of human possibility.

    Admittedly, some people can do triple kicks in the air, shatter boards and bricks easily, and knock out with a touch.

    When it starts getting ridiculous is when demos of empty force, claims of light body, and demos of martial prowess become mythical.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    Perhaps we heard different stories. I don't recall there being an iron palm match. I was told the Gaun (yes, "Karn" for you in Australia) was because of a sidekick to the ribcage. And the anecdote that I was told about adding Gaun Sao in Siu Nim Tao against a side kick is ridiculous.
    I guess I've read different stories too! I read that the gaan sau was reintroduced into the SNT form because of a low blow (maybe palm strike) in a beimo match. WSL was supposed to have used jum sau in an ineffective counter.

    The Taiwan match had "ended" with WSL punching his opponent out, but not before he got an opportunistic kick in. I think this might have been an anecdote related by David Peterson, but I can't be sure.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    As always Chu Sifu, you're speaking of yourself here?? Definitely NOT speaking for me

    With regards to the WSL/Fencer clip, personally I think this was just a rumour that spread from another event entirely and I will tell you why. As far as I know, and I have had the story verified by a few sources, there was a stand off between a Wing Chun pratitioner and an Olympian Fencer but it definitely wasn't televised.

    The WC practitioner actually used two foils against the fencer in a playful sparring session and gained the upper hand. Impressing the fencer so much that he wondered how he could do that when he had never held or used a foil in his life.

    The reply was that he had practised the BJD from Wing Chun. The practitioner was not WSL it was someone from the Lee Shing family
    Spencer,

    I'd never speak for you. Your tales are wonderful enough!

    Which Lee Shing family person was this? Two foils vs one on an Olympic Fencer? Of course, modesty must prevent you from revealing your source! The Olympic Fencer was probably laughing! You certainly don't use a foil (a stabbing and lunging weapon) like WCK's knives (a slashing, chopping and stabbing weapon).

    Did Lee Shing teach the BJD? Why did Austin Goh have to learn it from Yip Chun? His book shows him demoing Yip Chun's set...

  7. #52
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    I'm still waiting for the next Kyokushin dude who can snap horns off a bull, and kill one with his bare hands
    Even we know that those things were staged, they were oxen, not Bulls, he killed them by twisting the neck, though he did bring them done with a reverse punch, the horns were pre-sawed to make the break easier, though not any less spectacular, and Oyama got badly gorged by one once.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #53
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    Thanks Paul,

    I know it was staged, just like WSL against the fencer.

    Best regards,

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Here we go again! I have to say I admire your persistence T, but fighting in a cage really has nothing to do with using the knives or pole and this is the type of 'advanced' Wing Chun people need to see imho.
    Whether empty hand, pole or with knives, the process it takes to develop high levels of skill is the same. How do people become "high level" fencers? By spending loads of time bouting with skilled fencers.

    Do you know of ANYONE who is putting in lots of sparring time with the WCK pole or WCK knives against proven, highly skilled weapon fighters, like the Dog Brothers? You see, it's all fantasy.

    If you expect a Wing Chun student to want to fight every day of their lives, or train in such a way that they can 'compete' in such a barbaric sport, then I suggest you return to your kuit that covers Mo Duk
    It has nothing to do with what I expect. If a person wants to develop "high level" BJJ -- whether for self-defense, sport BJJ, sub wrestling, or MMA -- then they are going to need to put in thousands of hours rolling with skilled grapplers. There is absolutely no other way to develop skill than by doing that. There is no high level grappler that hasn't. And it is the same for boxing or wrestling or WCK.

    ANY well conditioned athlete would stand a chance in the ring and what you're constantly implying is that none of us WCK practitioners are athletes. Again, I suggest you get out more and actually 'meet' some of us But we all know that aint going to happen because you are in your own dream world yourself imo.
    Are YOU going to MMA or MT schools and sparring with them? No.

    Going back to my lead pipe truth: if you aren't already doing it, you won't be able to do it.

    So, if you aren't already sparring with and beating white-belt level MMA fighters, you won't be able to. It IS that simple.

    And what I really wanted to say on THIS thread is that the WCK guy that fought the fencer WAS NOT Wong Shun Leung!!??

    Why not try to contribute to that??
    Because all that stuff is fantasy nonsense.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    Jim,

    Why the desperation?

    WCK people can train with blindfolds, have inch power, can control a person's center of gravity, trap both of their hands, tie up and trap another's legs, strike a jong with full power, use softness to control hardness, and use devastating palm and fist strikes at short distance. These are all within the realm of human possibility.
    They can?

    Where are all or any examples of higher level Chun being applied (in fighting) clearly showing some of the things you mention?

    Why the desperation? Because examples are so hard to find...and I have heard this from many Chunners of many levels.
    Last edited by YungChun; 09-15-2010 at 02:23 PM.
    Jim Hawkins
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    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

  11. #56
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    "I was told the Gaun (yes, "Karn" for you in Australia) was because of a sidekick to the ribcage."

    Keep up man he is in hong kong and said karn I thought it was spelled garn but who really cares. and the story on the video that he tells it was just near his groin. And yes he did step back in and knock him out. He was taken out of the ring in a stretcher.

    "Far too much nut-riding here at times. People just gotta know he was a guy working things out for himself. Nut-riding is when there is association with a famous dude and you're basking in his glory for something you can't or didn't do. Heck, some people here who don't know the knives are saying what?"

    Ive never used WSL in promoting myself, I am from a Barry Lee school and thats enough for me. Im pretty sure you have used his name in promoting yourself and name drop him in topics so is that what you mean by nut ridding. This all came from someone asking if anyone had footage. The WSl guys said they had heard it but not seen the footage. Then you question whether any VT person could do it. Either through your own insecurities or knowledge that you couldn't it must be that it didn't happen. Then you say you heard that from gary Lam, so he is a liar then I guess. Then you try to make out that you know the secrets to how to beat a real fencer.
    I never said that I know it as a fact. That would be as stupid as reading something off a white board, not asking what it is and making up my own crap to sell articles in a magazine. We were always told that just cause he could do it doesn't mean you can. Its about doing the hours in training, against anyone you can to learn how to use VT. Its not about going to fifty different guys and never really training just to be able to have their names on your CV. Many people think they can skip the hard training if they learn that certain secret to "real VT". The secret in our school is "TRAIN" just keep it between us.

  12. #57
    "Here we go again! I have to say I admire your persistence T, but fighting in a cage really has nothing to do with using the knives or pole and this is the type of 'advanced' Wing Chun people need to see imho.

    If you expect a Wing Chun student to want to fight every day of their lives, or train in such a way that they can 'compete' in such a barbaric sport, then I suggest you return to your kuit that covers Mo Duk." (Lone Tiger)
    ............................

    ****NEVER cease to be amazed at how much COMPLETE BULL5HIT you guys allow Terence Niehoff to get away with.

    Do you really think for one second that this guy even does one-tenth of what he tells everybody else THEY should do?

    He's NEVER posted anything to confirm that he has. Not one single vid of Terence Niehoff doing ANYTHING. Ever. Won't show up anywhere. The one time he did (Garrett Gee's Friendship seminar) - he refused to touch hands with anyone. In more recent years people want to come and see him (or meet him somewhere) - and the answer always manages to be "NO".

    But not without first posturing a "YES".

    And you're taking his word for it? That he's been training this, training that. Sparring regularly with these guys....rolling regularly with those guys? You know, well-skilled mma guys, MT guys, boxers, bjj players: you know, all top shelf stuff.

    From someone who said that the chief weapon of his primary art (wing chun) is elbow strikes....and that tan sao can be used to get out of a Thai plum neck tie?

    Wake up, kungfumagazine wing chun forum.

    You're being played.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 09-15-2010 at 06:39 PM.

  13. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by bennyvt View Post
    "i was told the gaun (yes, "karn" for you in australia) was because of a sidekick to the ribcage."

    keep up man he is in hong kong and said karn i thought it was spelled garn but who really cares. And the story on the video that he tells it was just near his groin. And yes he did step back in and knock him out. He was taken out of the ring in a stretcher.

    "far too much nut-riding here at times. People just gotta know he was a guy working things out for himself. Nut-riding is when there is association with a famous dude and you're basking in his glory for something you can't or didn't do. Heck, some people here who don't know the knives are saying what?"

    ive never used wsl in promoting myself, i am from a barry lee school and thats enough for me. Im pretty sure you have used his name in promoting yourself and name drop him in topics so is that what you mean by nut ridding. This all came from someone asking if anyone had footage. The wsl guys said they had heard it but not seen the footage. Then you question whether any vt person could do it. Either through your own insecurities or knowledge that you couldn't it must be that it didn't happen. Then you say you heard that from gary lam, so he is a liar then i guess. Then you try to make out that you know the secrets to how to beat a real fencer.
    I never said that i know it as a fact. That would be as stupid as reading something off a white board, not asking what it is and making up my own crap to sell articles in a magazine. We were always told that just cause he could do it doesn't mean you can. Its about doing the hours in training, against anyone you can to learn how to use vt. Its not about going to fifty different guys and never really training just to be able to have their names on your cv. Many people think they can skip the hard training if they learn that certain secret to "real vt". The secret in our school is "train" just keep it between us.
    ***this...

  14. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by bennyvt View Post
    "I was told the Gaun (yes, "Karn" for you in Australia) was because of a sidekick to the ribcage."

    Keep up man he is in hong kong and said karn I thought it was spelled garn but who really cares. and the story on the video that he tells it was just near his groin. And yes he did step back in and knock him out. He was taken out of the ring in a stretcher.

    "Far too much nut-riding here at times. People just gotta know he was a guy working things out for himself. Nut-riding is when there is association with a famous dude and you're basking in his glory for something you can't or didn't do. Heck, some people here who don't know the knives are saying what?"

    Ive never used WSL in promoting myself, I am from a Barry Lee school and thats enough for me. Im pretty sure you have used his name in promoting yourself and name drop him in topics so is that what you mean by nut ridding. This all came from someone asking if anyone had footage. The WSl guys said they had heard it but not seen the footage. Then you question whether any VT person could do it. Either through your own insecurities or knowledge that you couldn't it must be that it didn't happen. Then you say you heard that from gary Lam, so he is a liar then I guess. Then you try to make out that you know the secrets to how to beat a real fencer.
    I never said that I know it as a fact. That would be as stupid as reading something off a white board, not asking what it is and making up my own crap to sell articles in a magazine. We were always told that just cause he could do it doesn't mean you can. Its about doing the hours in training, against anyone you can to learn how to use VT. Its not about going to fifty different guys and never really training just to be able to have their names on your CV. Many people think they can skip the hard training if they learn that certain secret to "real VT". The secret in our school is "TRAIN" just keep it between us.
    Exactly.

    The only secret is sweat , blood and tears in training, consistently.
    The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
    -sun tzu

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    Spencer,

    I'd never speak for you. Your tales are wonderful enough!

    Which Lee Shing family person was this? Two foils vs one on an Olympic Fencer? Of course, modesty must prevent you from revealing your source! The Olympic Fencer was probably laughing! You certainly don't use a foil (a stabbing and lunging weapon) like WCK's knives (a slashing, chopping and stabbing weapon).

    Did Lee Shing teach the BJD? Why did Austin Goh have to learn it from Yip Chun? His book shows him demoing Yip Chun's set...
    Your dig is quite fantastic, yet again, but shows serious lack of knowledge about Lee Shing and what he knew, yet again. Maybe as you're the 'man in the know' you can ask my Uncle why he learnt BJD from Ip Chun? If he did at all.

    The simple answer is, yes, Lee Shing did teach the BJD. But not as you know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by t_neihoff View Post
    Whether empty hand, pole or with knives, the process it takes to develop high levels of skill is the same. How do people become "high level" fencers? By spending loads of time bouting with skilled fencers.
    You take the words out of my mouth. High level knife men practise with the like. Which is why you aint at a high level sir!

    Quote Originally Posted by t_neihoff View Post
    Do you know of ANYONE who is putting in lots of sparring time with the WCK pole or WCK knives against proven, highly skilled weapon fighters, like the Dog Brothers? You see, it's all fantasy.
    Dog brothers!?? Sparring with 'knives'?? Who's in the fantasy world now??

    The ART of Wing Chun needs no explanation in this silly haven you're trying to create for yourself. You carry on training the way you talk of and post a few clips so we can see what it's all about. Go on. Just ONE!
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

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