Qi? Or no?....

[tiaji1983]

Hello all, I know there are a lot of knowledgable people on both sides of the Qi debate. Im more on the Qi side, but just cuz I have little knowledge about the scientific side. I have some experiences that I hope could be broken down so I can explain them to the non believing students as well as the believing students in an intelligent and practical way. I hope someone can help

1. My first day of class, my teacher done a demonstration. He told me put both hands out in front of me in a horse stance, and asked me to resist as he pushed down on my hands. Thats all he said. He pushed for a few seconds then stopped and stepped back. He started waving his hands, and the best way I can describe it, it felt like steam coming off a pot of boiling water coming from my Dantien and the Ming Men towards my teachers Dantien... Then he asked me to put my hands back up, it was a little harder to resist, but I could, the 3rd time I could barely resist at all. Then he made a waving motion towards my dantien and tried again, and I could resist easily. There was no explanations and no talking about it, so I cant see how it was the power of suggestion or hypnotism. I was hoping someone would have a scientific explanation as far as whats going on... My teacher explained he stole my Qi and gave it back, if he did not give it back, my immune system would crash.

2. How does sinking stop the opponent? In my school, we are taught to sink our bodys and our Qi straight down, so when an opponnet pushes forward they cannot move you. Your only sinking your body weight straight down scientifically, but when they push forward, even if there 2-3 times your size, they cannot move you, even if they can move someone 2-3 times your bodywieght. In Qi, it says your using the Earth to push back at them, and you Qi is penetrating the Earth. How does that work in science/physics?

3. Why is it that looking down, weakens you, and why is it pointing your fingers and looking in a specific direction gives you strength? An exampe of looking down weakening you, is if you do a demo on the unbendable arm, and your looking up, its strong. If you look down, you have to use more muscle strength to resist. Also if someone grabs your arm and is pushing towards your inside for example, if you point your finger out, it es easier to resist in that direction. In Qi, it would be Qi follows intention, but what about scientifically?

I have some more questions but lets see what yall think about these first... Thank you for any help you can provide...

[jdhowland]

These are good questions but i think you can answer them for yourself with a little reflecting.

Spend some time analyzing your memory of these experiences and consider these questions:

1. Muscle fatigue. Was there a difference, however slight, in the direction of the force you were asked to resist? Your body will adapt to different vectors and you may only experience it as resistance, the "same" experience in all three exercices.

2. Neurological linkage and intent. Your eyes direct your intent and subtle muscular responses result in more efficient resistance.

3. Consider Newton's third law of motion: a force against an object results in an equal and opposite force. If you have a good base while resisting you are part of the floor and energy is reflected from the floor through a properly structured body back to the source.

Qi is as real as it needs to be. It's not wrong, but it is a cultural construct. We can experience the same kinds of things but the mind prejudiced toward science might construct different explanations.

Be well.

[MartialDev]

1. Why would you think that anyone on this forum is capable of remotely diagnosing what your teacher really did, better than you, the one person who was actually present?

Is this a scientific viewpoint? That the detailed experimental data is not important, only opinions are? OF COURSE NOT.

2. When someone's upper body is tense, they also have their qi up, and they also are easier to move via a contact point on their upper body. When they are relaxed, their qi is also down (in a relative sense) and they are harder to manipulate, all other things being equal.

Does it follow that they are strong because their qi is now in the Earth? NO. Since it does not, does that mean that qi is irrelevant or misleading? NO AGAIN.

3. Resistance is not a state, it is a process. Gazing is a process. Pushing someone over or bending their arm is a process. To say that looking forwards or pointing your finger makes you strong "because of qi" and then solicit an alternative "scientific" explanation, is to make a MOCKERY of qi and martial arts and science all at once.

I did not come here with the intention of trolling, but for the love of Pete, PLEASE ASK BETTER QUESTIONS.

[mawali]

There are groups out there who want you to believe one way or another instead of just presenting a thing as it is and that is a problem. There are groups who will attempt to forcibly indoctrinate you in qi/chi/chee and if you don't you are their enemy, or you are 'persona non grata' from their universe so the best strategy is to gain as much knowledge you are able to comprehend and come to your own conclusion(s). If you end up believing as they do, then that is a choice so be happy.

None of my teachers preached the qi way of anything, whether taijiquan, qigong, yangshengong, etc. They stressed, what I understand/understood to be attitudional and behavioural standards that better assist the vital energy (whatever one may call it to one's cultural sphere and exposure or leaning/learning).

As an example, if you want to assist qi, free your mind from BS (from whatever source, relax, study, be aware and observe what is good and decent about life.

To be or not to be, or perhaps, to BS or not to BS that is the real crux of access to liberation and understanding.

[bawang]

no llolooloo

[tiaji1983]

These are good questions but i think you can answer them for yourself with a little reflecting.

Spend some time analyzing your memory of these experiences and consider these questions:

1. Muscle fatigue. Was there a difference, however slight, in the direction of the force you were asked to resist? Your body will adapt to different vectors and you may only experience it as resistance, the "same" experience in all three exercices.

2. Neurological linkage and intent. Your eyes direct your intent and subtle muscular responses result in more efficient resistance.

3. Consider Newton's third law of motion: a force against an object results in an equal and opposite force. If you have a good base while resisting you are part of the floor and energy is reflected from the floor through a properly structured body back to the source.

Qi is as real as it needs to be. It's not wrong, but it is a cultural construct. We can experience the same kinds of things but the mind prejudiced toward science might construct different explanations.

Be well.

1. Your advice makes sense. The thing is, muscle fatigue was a consideration, accept after the 3rd time, when he "gave the Qi back" I was able to resist almost equal to the first time. So I was wondering if there was anything else that could explain it...

2. Makes sense. But does that mean if we look down at any time or away from the task were doing it makes us weaker?

3. Good answer, that was what I was looking for thank you

[tiaji1983]

1. Why would you think that anyone on this forum is capable of remotely diagnosing what your teacher really did, better than you, the one person who was actually present?

Is this a scientific viewpoint? That the detailed experimental data is not important, only opinions are? OF COURSE NOT.

2. When someone's upper body is tense, they also have their qi up, and they also are easier to move via a contact point on their upper body. When they are relaxed, their qi is also down (in a relative sense) and they are harder to manipulate, all other things being equal.

Does it follow that they are strong because their qi is now in the Earth? NO. Since it does not, does that mean that qi is irrelevant or misleading? NO AGAIN.

3. Resistance is not a state, it is a process. Gazing is a process. Pushing someone over or bending their arm is a process. To say that looking forwards or pointing your finger makes you strong "because of qi" and then solicit an alternative "scientific" explanation, is to make a MOCKERY of qi and martial arts and science all at once.

I did not come here with the intention of trolling, but for the love of Pete, PLEASE ASK BETTER QUESTIONS.

1. I dont think anyone can diagnose it better than me. The whole purpose of this post is the way I teach. Through trial and error, I learned some people learn better if you tell them its Qi and make things mystical, but some people call BS and want to quit classes. When I can explain it scientifically, it helps some people relate, understand better, and want to keep coming back. You cannot explain Qi to a Christian for example, that believes that anything other than God's power is wrong, without them getting offended and quit. So I look for alternatives. If someone can explain it better and it still relates to my experience, and I can help my students understand it better, it doesnt matter what I believe if thier learning.

2. makes sense for a Qi standpoint. thank you.

3. Im not mocking anything... I used examples, that I can explain with Qi. I want to be able to explain it scientifically so others can relate and understand it better.
I understand your intention and I appreciate your answers. Please try to understand my intention for asking. Thank you again for your response.

[tiaji1983]

no llolooloo

lol thank you for your response, but could you please clarify what you believe they are?

[scottdurand]

You mentioned in the beginning "my first day of class". Are you a new student? I ask because you mention also 'teaching'.

[tiaji1983]

Oh sorry, I could see how that could be misleading. I been practicing about 9 years now, some by myself, one year with a teacher who had no idea what he was doing, and about 3 with my current teacher at Tien Shan Tzi. I am certified to teach Taichi, Xinyi, Bagua, Wudang and Qigong. I am still learning but I have been certified to teach what I know. I have teaching experience with family and freinds, and I taught at a local Rec Center and a Senior Center. Hopefully I will be done with my classes in 2 more years and open a school.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Oh sorry, I could see how that could be misleading. I been practicing about 9 years now, some by myself, one year with a teacher who had no idea what he was doing, and about 3 with my current teacher at Tien Shan Tzi. I am certified to teach Taichi, Xinyi, Bagua, Wudang and Qigong. I am still learning but I have been certified to teach what I know. I have teaching experience with family and freinds, and I taught at a local Rec Center and a Senior Center. Hopefully I will be done with my classes in 2 more years and open a school.

Advice on teaching:

Read some books on teaching. As I hope you're realizing, it's about WAY more than just knowing your curriculum and being skilled; and there is some genuinely good info on teaching out there.

Teach informally a LOT before even considering to teach formally. You're probably (I use the term politely) going to make some mistakes, turn some people off, and get humiliated because you were instructing out your ass. May even get beat up. That's good learning. Anyway, you want all of this to take place before you start teaching for realz. And yes, you do want all of this to take place.

Advice on Qi*:

remember that expectation and anticipation are intangible aspects of a relationship which can be influenced. I'd hazard a guess that the "hot, steamy" feeling you felt in your midsection was an emotional response of "confusion" which a) you interpreted contextually, given that you were experiencing something new and unusual ( a guy waving his hands in front of you ,) b) your teacher used as an opportunity to suggest weakness to you, which, as a result of the previous activity*, was already perceptible to you physically, and so the perception of weakness was amplified. If this teacher of yours has stuff to teach other than Qi tricks, then maybe just learn the other stuff, if it's worth it. Otherwise, maybe find another teacher?

*Doing the informal teaching thing will develop your Qi more than any static "Qi tricks" ever will.

**wherein he asked you to "resist" but implied "resist like this - " next time, if he asks you to resist, resist the successful completion of the drill rather than his direct line of force - it's TaiJi, right? Warning he may not like this

[taai gihk yahn]

When I can explain it scientifically, it helps some people relate,

you can't "explain" qi scientifically, because it is not an independent "thing", like electricity, or heat, or magnetism, etc. that can be isolated, measured in and of itself; qi is a functional metaphor for (in the case of the body) an aggregate of physiological processes that are observable at the macro-level by looking, feeling, etc.; the problem is that people try to "prove" that it exists, when in fact there is not only no way of doing this, there isn't even a point to it, especially because 2 different individuals will experience another person's qi differently - this is why Chinese medicine (CM), like many other similar systems, has an aspect to it that is highly subjective - meaning that the individual practitioner's personal experience / skill weighs in very heavily; and there is nothing wrong with this per se - it's just that the ability to generalize a given individuals perspective is not really possible nor desirable - this is the trade-off between what is often called allopathic medicine, which attempts to standardize and generalize treatment based on relatively objective criteria (which is a VERY good thing to have available, believe me, especially dealing with emergency trauma medicine, diseases that kill you fast and surgical intervention, among others), and things such as CM, osteopathy, homeopathy, etc., which may not have the capacity for generalizability, but do well on an individual level, mostly with chronic, non immediately life-threatening issues; and in these cases, looking at qi, or vitality, is possible, because this takes time, and is an ontological process that requires working over time with someone;

so if you want to talk about qi scientifically, you should study up on things like the autonomic nervous system, the neuroendocrine system and the connective tissue system, as they are very much involved in the sorts of reactions / responses that you have described; you also want to look into phennomenon such as ideomotor response, placebo response and entrainment response, because they are also very much involved - and that is not to say that any of these things should be avoided or looked down upon, as they are all potentially powerful mechanisms for self-correction on the part of the organism; but whereas centuries ago, it was not possible to describe them as such, they were variably attributed to qi-related phenommenon; now, of course, we know a lot more about how the system operates as such, and so while it's fine to have the metaphor to work with, one needs must also consider a bit more objectively what is happening; personally, my belief is that if one is going to teach qigong / taiji and talk about what they believe a student's body is doing when they have any sort of response, one is being irresponsible by not being as well versed in contemporary anatomy and physiology as they are in CM concepts - otherwise, it's tantamount to teaching someone knife defenses without ever having been in a knife fight...

[taai gihk yahn]

Advice on Qi*:

remember that expectation and anticipation are intangible aspects of a relationship which can be influenced. I'd hazard a guess that the "hot, steamy" feeling you felt in your midsection was an emotional response of "confusion" which a) you interpreted contextually, given that you were experiencing something new and unusual ( a guy waving his hands in front of you ,) b) your teacher used as an opportunity to suggest weakness to you, which, as a result of the previous activity*, was already perceptible to you physically, and so the perception of weakness was amplified. If this teacher of yours has stuff to teach other than Qi tricks, then maybe just learn the other stuff, if it's worth it. Otherwise, maybe find another teacher?

*Doing the informal teaching thing will develop your Qi more than any static "Qi tricks" ever will.

**wherein he asked you to "resist" but implied "resist like this - " next time, if he asks you to resist, resist the successful completion of the drill rather than his direct line of force - it's TaiJi, right? Warning he may not like this

you can get pretty much the same response from people doing any sort of "healing" work, such as cranial / visceral, polarity, applied kinesiology, Alexander technique, etc., al of which have dramatically different theoretical underpinnings and explanations for what is going on, some in direct contradiction to each other - which strongly suggests to me that they are all sub-sets of something more fundamental that is intrinsic to human to human interraction, which, when occuring in a "healing" context, is triggered almost automatically and involves a cascade of neuroendocrineological / autonomic events that are designed to drive the system towards homeostasis; to speak metaphorically, no man is an island - in other words, like cells interracting with each other on there own level, each human organism is "designed" to interract with another in the same way; and, like specialized cells, some people are just better at "healing" than others, and so are "naturally" adept at hands-on (or similar) modalities;

yeah, it's weird, go crunch some granola and hug a tree, but i stand by it...

[Xiao3 Meng4]

you can get pretty much the same response from people doing any sort of "healing" work, such as cranial / visceral, polarity, applied kinesiology, Alexander technique, etc., al of which have dramatically different theoretical underpinnings and explanations for what is going on, some in direct contradiction to each other - which strongly suggests to me that they are all sub-sets of something more fundamental that is intrinsic to human to human interraction, which, when occuring in a "healing" context, is triggered almost automatically and involves a cascade of neuroendocrineological / autonomic events that are designed to drive the system towards homeostasis; to speak metaphorically, no man is an island - in other words, like cells interracting with each other on there own level, each human organism is "designed" to interract with another in the same way; and, like specialized cells, some people are just better at "healing" than others, and so are "naturally" adept at hands-on (or similar) modalities;

yeah, it's weird, go crunch some granola and hug a tree, but i stand by it...

Holy crap that's a convoluted sentence! I got "Instinctive grooming" out of that. I call it ZooDiaitaCognosy myself, as a correlate to Zoopharmacognosy.

Am I close? Here's a Youtube Playlist I made which helps imply what I mean from an anthropological perspective. (Might wanna grab a cuppa)

I should note that this is an ongoing project and the playlist will grow/change as I go: for instance, I want to include Tattooing, massage, some more cool brain stuff, etc.

[tiaji1983]

Thank you for the responses. I will look into that taai ghik yahn. THats why I posted this on this forum. To learn a different way to explain whats going on.

I dont know if what my teacher was doing was a matter of suggestion though. As in he can stand a few feet away, and have you feel his QI.. Maybe its the same thing. I also have had some success with energy healing. When I touch people they say they feel really hot, and feel the ehat travel. In some cases I feel cold or emotions which the people are hidding. Can anyone explain that please?