Jon Funk

[mantis108]

115 forms!
In Liang Xuexiang's book "Boxing, Staff and Spear Fencing Manual" (Quan Gun Qiang Pu) written in 1842 the author mentions three core mantis forms.
Apparently some peeps in the Seven Star line have been busy in the last 150 plus years. Though in defense I believe CCKTCPM has also developed a remarkable number of forms.

Hand form wise, CCK TCPM didn't have a lot of forms. The only form that is created by GM Chiu is the wooden dummy form and that's about it.

Now, weaponry is a different story. I am by no mean an expert in weaponry and to be honest I don't even bother with weaponry in CCK TCPM at all. I always say to people who come to me that I don't do any weapon and there are plenty of good CCK TCPM teachers such as Alexander Tse, Galen Fok, etc, who are marvelous with weaponry in CCK TCPM. If they are only interested in weaponry then they should seek out these teachers.

As far as I am concern CCK TCPM is great with self defense. It served me well in the past and I have absolute confidence in the system whether or not it has one form, ten forms or no forms at all.

Nowadays, my focus is but 5 forms or so and of course the 64 Shou Fa. Honestly, good Kung Fu isn't about forms. Now excellent Kung Fu truly and really is formless and shapeless. So...

[nfboy]

beginner - Beng Bu
intermediate - Ren Jeh
advance - Zai Yao


LOl..Jon Funk only teaches one of these forms, bung bo. The other two he does not even know! The guy has not been certified by anyone to teach! Al Cheng was never certified to teach by WHF or given permission to teach so how could Mr.Funk ever consider himself a sifu.

As for who am I? Who cares. Really. I am allowed to ask question and challenge people 's belief in who is or is not a sifu.

[mooyingmantis]

beginner - Beng Bu
intermediate - Ren Jeh
advance - Zai Yao


LOl..Jon Funk only teaches one of these forms, bung bo. The other two he does not even know! The guy has not been certified by anyone to teach! Al Cheng was never certified to teach by WHF or given permission to teach so how could Mr.Funk ever consider himself a sifu.

As for who am I? Who cares. Really. I am allowed to ask question and challenge people 's belief in who is or is not a sifu.

You make some big accusations! How do you know which forms he knows? How do you know which forms he teaches? Do you know the whole story about Al Cheng?

Once again, it seems your only purpose here is to attempt to destroy the reputation of Mr. Funk. That makes your inquiries suspect.

[mantis108]

Sometimes no matter how excellent a teacher or a coach is there might just be a character conflict existed between student and teacher. So if Mr. Funk isn't the type of teacher that you are looking for, well I would suggest that you leave him be and continue to search for your ideal teacher.

[Syn7]

You make some big accusations! How do you know which forms he knows? How do you know which forms he teaches? Do you know the whole story about Al Cheng?

Once again, it seems your only purpose here is to attempt to destroy the reputation of Mr. Funk. That makes your inquiries suspect.

whats the story with al cheng???

ive seen jon funk at demos and festivals with his school... everyone ive heard talk about him in person had good things to say... other sifus around here seem to respect him...

i enjoyed watching his kids do their thing...

[Luk Hop]

All square and not much of anything else.

[nfboy]

You make some big accusations! How do you know which forms he knows? How do you know which forms he teaches? Do you know the whole story about Al Cheng?

Once again, it seems your only purpose here is to attempt to destroy the reputation of Mr. Funk. That makes your inquiries suspect.

I know what forms he teaches cause I asked him. The only forms he teaches are the one's listed on his webpage. I asked about the ones he does not teach and he said you don't need to know them, so in other word's he could not be bothered learning them! I am not a student there, I was only asking questions! Come on his rep is not all that great! When I searched him on the web and other forums I found more negative stuff than positive and also from talking to locals since I moved here few have positive things to say about him.

All I know about AL Cheng is what I read on this forum, and that is he was not a graduate of WHF.

[Luk Hop]

...All I know about AL Cheng is what I read on this forum,.....

Holy heart failure, Batman!

What ever you do, don't click on any links to blogs, web-sites, etc.... chances are it will only get worse.

[nfboy]

So according to you guys all I need to do is learn 3 or 4 mantis open hand forms and maybe one or two weapon forms and I am a Sifu!! Really !! That's it?? Wow I should of took up mantis yr's ago, I would be a great great grandmaster by now. This would never happen in hung gar, wing chun, bak mei or karate you are not a teacher until you know all the forms/katas and you graduate in front of your sifu or sensai and are given the certificate to prove it.
So answer the question please!! Why so many 7* forms? What are the original forms? If you don't need to know them all why did some one create them? What one's do you decide to learn? Aren't they all important? So what makes a person a mantis sifu?

[goju]

so the sign of a good teacher if how many forms he knows and can teach?

golly all along i thought martial arts were about fighting

[Paul T England]

Jon funk is a highly respected mantis guy. Like his way or not he has real kung fu training and teaches core mantis forms.

Some teachers reduce the number of forms to suit and weapons get dropped by some teachers as most students will not have the time to develop real skill with more than one or two weapons.

btw. 5th son staff is the core staff form of 7 * mantis and has great technique in it. Some lines also don't have some weapons such as 2 handed sword.

The bottom line is if you don't like the teachers, style, method of teaching then don't waste anyones time and find something else.

As a teacher, if the student does not have faith in my mehtods then they may as well leave as longterm they will not develop.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Paul T England]

oh a couple more points...

What makes a person a sifu = having students

what makes a good sifu = skill, experience, knowledge

what makes you a sifu in "who flung do" style mantis = permission from your sifu or you out lived thes rest of your family. (or started your own )

You can only ask questions based a a certain family style. Each Mantis family have different methods and forms (but core ideas and forms). Nobody is owner of all families.... (funny thats the same with Hung Gar as well.

Certificates and sashes, photos and websites do not mean equal skill.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[LaterthanNever]

Nfboy,

"Well that is a lot of forms on that list, way to many for one person to every know or have time to practice. Why so many? No you don't need a paper showing that you are a sifu but i would think you need some evidence?"

Well jeez..that was a pretty big about face!(and yet a few posts later..you villify the man yet AGAIN!!). You'll never be a sifu if you vacillate so often..disrupts the chi. First you say he's a fraud, then you say "oh well..that's alot of forms"(indicating that your previous standard was unfair.

I want to relay a story and in doing so, my stance on the "more is not better" idea.

I was talking to a sifu once of a well know southern shaolin style. We were talking about forms. I mentioned a form which is traditionally 3rd on the list of what is known as the "4 pillars".

He grew impatient and raised his voice and said "You only need ONE!! You can beat 90 % of the guys in the street if you knew only F- H--(the name of the form".

Great. And you know what? It's probably true.

BUT....

the flipside to that coin is..then you only know ONE form!! What happens if and when you fight someone in real life(or even sparring for that matter) who is either a sifu(in that style or another style) or even a highly trained practitioner?

Ah..well then the dynamic changes a bit now doesn't it?

While it's true that there are those who collect forms and brag "oh yeah..well I know over 70 forms" and lets just say perhaps this guy learned them but can perform them rather slovenly.

The prevailing herd mentality in kung fu is that lots of forms= poor performance in each.

Well..while I don't deny that there are kung fu people who fit that criteria, its analagous to saying "if you get really good at addition, forget about getting good at subtraction, multiplication and division too--you are just a "math collector" "..

Needless to say I think that is irrational. There are plenty of sifus who know more than one form(or even more than 10) and know them WELL..


Pointing to the lack of people who know more than a few forms well as it being somehow an impossible hill to climb isn't because it's impossible, it's because there aren't as many people dedicated to being able to rise to the standard.

[taichi4eva]

Hi mantis108

"Nowadays, my focus is but 5 forms or so and of course the 64 Shou Fa. Honestly, good Kung Fu isn't about forms."

Would you mind listing those 5 forms?

[mooyingmantis]

This would never happen in hung gar, wing chun, bak mei or karate you are not a teacher until you know all the forms/katas and you graduate in front of your sifu or sensai and are given the certificate to prove it.

So answer the question please!! Why so many 7* forms? What are the original forms? If you don't need to know them all why did some one create them? What one's do you decide to learn? Aren't they all important? So what makes a person a mantis sifu?

Now you ask some legitimate questions. Others have provided great answers. I'll try to provide a few.

This would never happen in hung gar...
That is incorrect. I have a friend who is authorized to teach Hung Gar by his sifu and his sigung. The sigung is a very well known master of Hung Gar. Everyone would recognize the name if I mentioned it, but I will keep this all anonymous since I didn't get my friend's permission to talk about this.
My friend runs his own school (about 80-100 students), he is allowed to use the title "Sifu". Yet he has never learned the Ten Forms Fist or Iron Wire.
So, it is not only PM that uses this policy.

Why so many 7* forms?
Because many have added their own take on the art. Luo Guang Yu added several forms as he was influenced by other instructors during his time working with the Jing Wu Association. Wong Hon Fan changed some of the forms he was taught. Perhaps some forms were invented as teaching transitions from one set to another. One lineage of 7* believes that forms were adopted in from Lost Track Boxing.
Most things change and grow with time, 7* PM is no different.

What are the original forms?
As I noted earlier in a post, the earliest historically accepted text that names the mantis core forms lists: beng bu, luanjie and fenshen bazhou. Though as Mantis 108 mentioned there were the 64 shou fa as well.

If you don't need to know them all why did some one create them?
Perhaps for no other reason than artistic expression. Or it could be that they thought they could improve on what they had learned. So, some agreed they were good additions and kept them, others perhaps felt they were unnecessary and discarded them.

What one's do you decide to learn? Aren't they all important?
You learn the ones your Sifu tells you to learn based on what he thinks is important for YOU. Some may be taught Da Fanche or Xiao Fanche, great forms for those who are tall and have long arms. Certain Sifu emphasize different aspects of the art, so they teach the forms that meet that need.
My instructor told me along time ago that due to the repetitiousness of the 7* forms it is not really necessary for the average student to learn them all. Single Thrust Flower, considered a higher level set by some, has little over Beng Bu, considered by some to be a beginning level set.
In 7* the same combinations and theories are repeated over and over through many, many sets.