# of Forms - deserves it's own thread.

[LaterthanNever]

"I learned 5 forms I teach 5 forms, the applications areadly over lapp, so i couldnt imagine have more what's the point?"

Because what if you fought someone who ALSO knew the SAME 5 forms? Do you see a problem arising?

And what if you encountered someone who was an experienced martial artist(of a different style perhaps) and found that the 5 you were taught, just had elements to them which..were not up to par with what this guy was bringing to the table?

Obviously(just using logic here), there was an element of satisfaction in whatever # of forms existed in the original kung fu style(whatever style you can name), but yet..just using reasoning alone..there must have been an element of "this alone is not enough"..otherwise other forms would not have been added or modifed to form the end product.

This isn't to say that any of the 4 pillar sets of Hung Ga alone are bad forms..or Beng Bu(Bung Bo) being the mother form of all mantis is somewhow lacking, or Sil Lum Tao of Wing Cun is deficient...

But whoever designed these styles must have felt that there was going to be an instance in the future where the "what if" factor pops up. "What if" being "well..what if this doesn't work..I need to have option B".

[iunojupiter]

Maybe it's me, but I don't believe more forms equals more techniques to apply to different situations. Shouldn't the techniques you've learned be applicable to multiple situations? My teacher always stresses that every movement in a form has multiple variations of the movement, slight alterations, and that each of those variations has multiple applications depending on what your opponent sends your way.
And in a fight of equals, isn't it really down to each fighter's skill level, not how many techniques they know?

My sifu always quotes to us that "A jack of all trades is a master of none" when someone asks how many techniques should they learn and how many forms do we need.

But, like I said, I consider myself a novice, so... just my two cents.

Cheers!
~josh~

[LaterthanNever]

Josh,

"Shouldn't the techniques you've learned be applicable to multiple situations?"

Yes..of course! But that's STILL not the reason why someone learns more than one form.

No form by itself even with said techniques being applicable to multiple situations, is going to contain all applications.

That's the reason why other forms are developed in the first place!

[MightyB]

Because what if you fought someone who ALSO knew the SAME 5 forms? Do you see a problem arising?

And what if you encountered someone who was an experienced martial artist(of a different style perhaps) and found that the 5 you were taught, just had elements to them which..were not up to par with what this guy was bringing to the table?

Honestly - I'd have no problem fighting someone who claims to know 1000 forms. Doesn't matter because in no way does number of forms learned or known effect one's ability to apply the material.

You have to be able to apply a technique under extreme stress. And forget any notion of "for the street" because all martial arts sport and traditional are poor excuses for self defense in a real life or death violent encounter.

The only thing that can save you is an escape plan, mental preparation, planning and drilling your escape plan with your family, an understanding of the criminal MO (violent criminals are accomplished liars and recidivists meaning they intend to rape and torture your loved ones and kill you so do not believe them when they say do this and you won't get hurt), a complete focus on escape coupled with the notion that injury is to be expected and not feared (you're going to be stabbed and shot while you escape)...

Anyway - got sidetracked... Forms are fun, you can find value in combination set ups through analyzing a form. There's no magic skill that comes from the number of forms you know. After about 3 to 5 empty hand forms, it's all redundant and you won't get anything new - take it from me, I've been taught around 50 or so forms, not saying I remember them all.

And - the most boring form of all is probably the best.

[SoCo KungFu]

"I learned 5 forms I teach 5 forms, the applications areadly over lapp, so i couldnt imagine have more what's the point?"

Because what if you fought someone who ALSO knew the SAME 5 forms? Do you see a problem arising?

And what if you encountered someone who was an experienced martial artist(of a different style perhaps) and found that the 5 you were taught, just had elements to them which..were not up to par with what this guy was bringing to the table?

Obviously(just using logic here), there was an element of satisfaction in whatever # of forms existed in the original kung fu style(whatever style you can name), but yet..just using reasoning alone..there must have been an element of "this alone is not enough"..otherwise other forms would not have been added or modifed to form the end product.

This isn't to say that any of the 4 pillar sets of Hung Ga alone are bad forms..or Beng Bu(Bung Bo) being the mother form of all mantis is somewhow lacking, or Sil Lum Tao of Wing Cun is deficient...

But whoever designed these styles must have felt that there was going to be an instance in the future where the "what if" factor pops up. "What if" being "well..what if this doesn't work..I need to have option B".

My no forms would beat your many forms like an out of work h00ker.

[Eric Hunstad]

How many forms do you need?

It depends on your goals.

If your goal is perfection of the mind, body, and spirit, the more the merrier.

If your goal is combat alone, you don't need any.

Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com

[YouKnowWho]

I like this combo very much - hook punch, turn back/spin kick, back fist.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2...1092556new.gif

It's not in any of the forms that I know. Sometime I wonder whether we should try to take combo out of the forms, or just create combo by using our "common sense".

[LaterthanNever]

"My no forms would beat your many forms like an out of work h00ker"

Do I detect an inappropriate aura of arrogance in these words?

That's a pretty strong statement towards someone you've never met before.


Unless you are either the "Jon Funk is a fraud" Troll or the "Nam Anh" Troll in disguise? (unless maybe they are the same person).

[Kevin73]

If you look at okinawan karate (more documenation and a little more recent than many kung fu styles) you will see that originally, instructors only had 1 or 2 forms/kata. The rest was two person drills and lots of basics. The forms/katas were a system in and of itself.

If you wanted to learn more skills in an area, you would go to that instructor and learn those skills and a form/kata that emphasized those skills. Eventually instructors started to collect those forms/katas to preserve them.

Gichin Funakoshi attempted to collect many of the forms from Shuri-Te and preserve and pass them on. Mabuni collected all of the shuri-te and naha-te forms and put them in his style (around 50 kata). Some of these forms are VERY close to each other and the material is found in other places, do you really need to incorporate them? Nope, the material is already in there and the only reason is to give students more busy work to keep them happy.

I think the commercialization of the martial arts is what lead to the more is better. It gives someone tons of material to keep working on and coming back for more. Most people would rather keep learning new stuff than working on what they have to master it. Add to the fact that not everyone studies a martial art to be a fighter and you keep adding stuff for them to practice.

I think also, some forms are redundant, in that they are replaced by other forms later on in the system. I have heard of some kung fu styles that a beginner would learn a certain form, and then at the intermediate level would learn a very similiar form with some more advanced principles/concepts to it. Then finally, a third form would be learned with more additional material. So, you would have in this case 3 forms even though by the advanced level you would drop the first two in practice since the lessons are replicated.

[MightyB]

I like this combo very much - hook punch, turn back/spin kick, back fist.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2...1092556new.gif

It's not in any of the forms that I know. Sometime I wonder whether we should try to take combo out of the forms, or just create combo by using our "common sense".

That's basically how my Sifu teaches. He'll find good combos and set ups in the forms and then drills them.

He always says that the best way to analyze the application in a form if I'm unsure and because I live too far away to ask is to go back a couple of movements to an app that I know and then follow it's progression to the move in question. He said that all of the forms are basically combination chains where one move builds upon the previous.

IMO - I think it's probably the most fun way to make sense out of the forms.

[Codeboy]

Heheh, good point Mighty B. You should see the way Sifu trains techniques these days. More organized and more repetition. Good stuff. More simplicity too. Pak sao, diu sao. A key to a lot of things is repetition, repetition, repetition!

[EarthDragon]

laterthannver
"I learned 5 forms I teach 5 forms, the applications areadly over lapp, so i couldnt imagine have more what's the point?"

Because what if you fought someone who ALSO knew the SAME 5 forms? Do you see a problem arising?

There is NO martial art that was desgined to fight against itself so your point is irrelavant. So no I do not see the problem arsing. however If your point even ficticious was that one needs more forms to fight because of someone knowing the same forms and youi need to learn 10 more (and mind you this would never happen) but then it would come down to speed skill and strength and how good of a fighter you were, not but knowing another set.

My shifu always all you need to do is master 1 block and 1 punch. Everything else you train for is just extras

[LaterthanNever]

"If you wanted to learn more skills in an area, you would go to that instructor and learn those skills and a form/kata that emphasized those skills."

TA-DAAA!!!! Someone finally gets it If someone wanted to learn more SKILLS in that area. The fact that many kung fu styles have "Beginning, Intermediate and Advanced forms" it indicitive of that dynamic. It's not possible to learn advanced material and applications in the first form. Were this not so..there would be no "intermediate" or "advanced" forms.


"I think the commercialization of the martial arts is what lead to the more is better. It gives someone tons of material to keep working on and coming back for more. Most people would rather keep learning new stuff than working on what they have to master it. "

Too true! And I don't mean that one should add forms just for the sake of adding them. I merely mean it is possible to master more than one form.



"I think also, some forms are redundant, in that they are replaced by other forms later on in the system. I have heard of some kung fu styles that a beginner would learn a certain form, and then at the intermediate level would learn a very similiar form with some more advanced principles/concepts to it. Then finally, a third form would be learned with more additional material. So, you would have in this case 3 forms even though by the advanced level you would drop the first two in practice since the lessons are replicated."


Indeed again. Some forms are totally redundant. Lets say that even in an advanced form..you would still get 1/10th the material you learned in the first form, but you would still get added material that just was not privy to a beginner or intermediate. Look at Ying Jow Pai(eagle claw). If you look at the Chin-Na(seize and control joint locks) of what a student learns at the beginning..they are wrist and arm locks..as one progresses(hence..going away from a beginner)..they learn more advanced Chin-Na such as throat locks, leg locks, and supposedly at the upper level of the final 108 locks of General Ngok Fei locks that are designed to kill.

Thus it is the same concept with forms.

[mooyingmantis]

As our friend Bawang might say: More forms = more monies. In other words, keep em busy, keep em paying. This is how the McDojos do it.

Though I do respect the ideas of collecting forms as a way to preserve the arts.

As a self-defense/street emphasis teacher I believe less is more. I teach forms to preserve principles of fighting. My students learn fighting through drilling and FIGHTING.

[YouKnowWho]

Though I do respect the ideas of collecting forms as a way to preserve the arts.

It's easy to do in nowdays. Just record all your forms and you will never have to train those forms any more. The day before you want to teach that form, you just look at your DVD again.