VT antigrappling

[bennyvt]

Do you guys think there is such a thing?
You see alot of videos etc that say antigrappling. I used to think like that but through actually trying it I have changed my view. While I still think VT is the best standup style, I think that VT can be used to stay out of a grappling situation (not all the time hence the ground training) once in a really close grappling in stand up or all ground stuff there is no real antigrappling. Its really only better grappling.
When I started with my friend it was more to use the VT on the ground. While all striking I do on the ground is VT I don't do VT on the ground. Without the training in position control, transitions, submission defence and sweeps/escapes etc the VT would be useless. Although I have found that moves can be imnproved by using VT ideas it is just changing the grappling not VT antigrappling.
I was talking about it with someone and I said it was like my own version of Biu Jee, as in its what I do when I screw up the VT. The guy I train ground stuff with has a fellow student that fights and teaches in japan. He was interested in the VT as he had fought a vt guy in a MMA fight. The VT guy had him in the stand up and he said that he couldn't get close enough. He did a sliding leg pick (he slide in between his legs and pulled him down) he didn't get behind him to get it properly so he just pulled him down onto top of himself. The VT guy just started punching and Simon swept him and finished him in a neck lynch (one arm full nelson) but had his hand on his knee instead of the ground. So the guy was stuck sideways while he pounded him out.
Long story short Simon said he screwed it but as the guy was just trying to strike he had no base so he got flipped and smashed. So if the guy had even learnt a little wrestling or anything that teaches positional control he would have smashed simon.
I was talking to a guy the other day and he was asking about the ground but didn't want to learn how to grapple, I said atleast if you do a bit of wrestling and learn how to control someone on the ground it will make it massively safer and allow you to use your VT to strike.
So what do you guys think?

[Frost]

Stop being sensible and thinking things through logically, that kind of behaviour has no place on this forum )

On the whole what wing chun brings to the table is the opposite of anti grappling: It trains close in strikes, has no real level change or lateral movement at long range, and doesn’t generate enough power in its strikes to put a grappler off. I also think any style that stresses close quarter fighting (like in a phone booth) uses upright stances and has a limited if non existent repertoire of throws and takedowns will have a really hard time coming up with anything like a decent anti grappling game.

Some of the TWC stuff I have seen would be useful in anti grappling, longer range strikes, lateral footwork etc.

There is anti grappling stuff out there but for the most part it covers long range straight power punches which makes the opponent hesitate in coming in range to grapple, the ability to level change and use fast lateral movement to upset and beat the opponent, and long range hooks and uppercuts that work with the lateral movement does this sound like wing chun to anyone? Once in grappling range it covers keeping the elbows tight to defend against the underhooks, level changes to defend against the leg attacks forming a bridge against the opponents neck and moving laterally away…again does this sound like wing chun.?

And the above only really works 50% of the time, you are right to be able to really defend against a good grappler you need to be trained in grappling.

But as they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and whilst you don’t need to become a BJJ brown belt its not simply a case of learning to sprawl, bridge and how to get up and bang you are done.

You need to spend months in not years learning to defend the clinch and the shot, how to read your opponents movements and how to deal with different pressures on the ground and defend different positions and submissions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is there "anti grappling"?
yes, by definition it is what one does to AVOID ( not counter) grappling.
Be it running away, running over the grappler with a car, throwing a chair at him or KOing him BEFORE grappling happens.
ONCE contact has been made then there is no anti-grappling, just grappling or grappling and striking intermixed.

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ using WC to strike on the ground. just as there are very specific things you have to do for grappling on the ground that are completely different from standup, there are specific things you have to do for striking on the ground. Striking on the ground has a whole different set of principles, tactics and biomechanics.

Trying to strike on the ground with WC is no different than trying to use WC to grapple on the ground.

[t_niehoff]

Do you guys think there is such a thing?

No.

You see alot of videos etc that say antigrappling.

Yet, we never see them actually use it against decent grapplers, do we?

I used to think like that but through actually trying it I have changed my view. While I still think VT is the best standup style,

It's not.

Look what you just said above -- that you used to think "like that"? Why did you think "like that" in the first place? Because you were told it by someone who didn't know better and because you wanted to believe it. And because you didn't look at the evidence (the lack of anyone who could use their "antigrappling" in grappling with decently skilled grapplers) and actually earn some experience (grappling) yourself BEFORE arriving at a conclusion.

Now you say WCK is the best stand-up style -- yet again falling into the same traps.

I think that VT can be used to stay out of a grappling situation (not all the time hence the ground training) once in a really close grappling in stand up or all ground stuff there is no real antigrappling. Its really only better grappling.

WCK is striking and grappling combined.

When I started with my friend it was more to use the VT on the ground. While all striking I do on the ground is VT I don't do VT on the ground.

If you are referring to ground-n-pound, there are much more effective ways to strike (mechanics, etc.) on the ground than with WCK mechanics. WCK is suited for attached, standing striking.

Without the training in position control, transitions, submission defence and sweeps/escapes etc the VT would be useless. Although I have found that moves can be imnproved by using VT ideas it is just changing the grappling not VT antigrappling.

"VT ideas"? WTF are they?

If you have "improved" your ground game by using "VT ideas" then you can bet your ground training sucked.

I was talking about it with someone and I said it was like my own version of Biu Jee, as in its what I do when I screw up the VT. The guy I train ground stuff with has a fellow student that fights and teaches in japan. He was interested in the VT as he had fought a vt guy in a MMA fight. The VT guy had him in the stand up and he said that he couldn't get close enough. He did a sliding leg pick (he slide in between his legs and pulled him down) he didn't get behind him to get it properly so he just pulled him down onto top of himself. The VT guy just started punching and Simon swept him and finished him in a neck lynch (one arm full nelson) but had his hand on his knee instead of the ground. So the guy was stuck sideways while he pounded him out.
Long story short Simon said he screwed it but as the guy was just trying to strike he had no base so he got flipped and smashed. So if the guy had even learnt a little wrestling or anything that teaches positional control he would have smashed simon.
I was talking to a guy the other day and he was asking about the ground but didn't want to learn how to grapple, I said atleast if you do a bit of wrestling and learn how to control someone on the ground it will make it massively safer and allow you to use your VT to strike.
So what do you guys think?

If you want to learn how to fight on the ground, go train with very good, proven ground fighters. You might be surprised to find that they developed high level skills, including world-class skills, without needing "VT ideas".

[Wayfaring]

Do you guys think there is such a thing?

Well I think you can develop your bridge in a way that makes it harder to clinch and get taken down. I think someone could develop proficiency that with unlimited space they'd be hard to take down. The problem IMO comes in when you don't have unlmited space. There's overwhelming evidence showing people can't stay out of a clinch against a cage. If you're in a clinch, then your anti-grappling has not worked. If you're not perfect, you're on the ground. Then what do you do? Anti-wrestling? Anti-BJJ? Give up?

You see alot of videos etc that say antigrappling. I used to think like that but through actually trying it I have changed my view. While I still think VT is the best standup style, I think that VT can be used to stay out of a grappling situation (not all the time hence the ground training) once in a really close grappling in stand up or all ground stuff there is no real antigrappling. Its really only better grappling.

In a clinch or on the ground other skillsets and principles predominate.

When I started with my friend it was more to use the VT on the ground. While all striking I do on the ground is VT I don't do VT on the ground. Without the training in position control, transitions, submission defence and sweeps/escapes etc the VT would be useless. Although I have found that moves can be imnproved by using VT ideas it is just changing the grappling not VT antigrappling.

There are core fundmentals that need to be developed for the ground game, and core skills. If you do the work to develop these, then many things will work for strategies and philosophies. If you don't then you are SOL regardless of what strategy you use.

I was talking about it with someone and I said it was like my own version of Biu Jee, as in its what I do when I screw up the VT.

While it is true one of the core concepts of Biu Jee is to recover your space when things go wrong, the idea that the ground game is that to me sounds a little wacky.

The guy I train ground stuff with has a fellow student that fights and teaches in japan. He was interested in the VT as he had fought a vt guy in a MMA fight. The VT guy had him in the stand up and he said that he couldn't get close enough. He did a sliding leg pick (he slide in between his legs and pulled him down) he didn't get behind him to get it properly so he just pulled him down onto top of himself. The VT guy just started punching and Simon swept him and finished him in a neck lynch (one arm full nelson) but had his hand on his knee instead of the ground. So the guy was stuck sideways while he pounded him out.
Long story short Simon said he screwed it but as the guy was just trying to strike he had no base so he got flipped and smashed. So if the guy had even learnt a little wrestling or anything that teaches positional control he would have smashed simon.

Well there you go. Missing a core ground fundamental skill - base - and all the VT skill in the world doesn't help.

I was talking to a guy the other day and he was asking about the ground but didn't want to learn how to grapple, I said atleast if you do a bit of wrestling and learn how to control someone on the ground it will make it massively safer and allow you to use your VT to strike.
So what do you guys think?

I think the guy you were talking to was kind of a wanker. The ground game is fun, a workout, a chess match, and every bit as addicting as striking. Take a little time out to work it in and get some good instruction.

[bennyvt]

I meant the biu jee as an idea as biu jee is what to do when the VT stuffs up and how to get back to what you want. I don't in anyway mean that it is VT. I agree with the ground being fun. When I first started I just wanted to learn how to get out and up but now I really like the whole ground game.
Not sure if I agree that the striking on the ground can't be done with VT. I find it means I don't over reach or twist stopping being swept, my elbow is in the help aid in any escapes from armbars etc (actually in shoot fighting you keep the elbow in when punching for those reasons), I have control and other reasons. All this can't be done without a good base and position as you would know.
Although I have found most times that I thought I was making it better by using my VT I was actually just doing it the way it should be done, for example when trying to pry the guys hands apart I would shoot my hand through like in a strike. Later I wasn't doing it and my mate told me to do exactly that. But I did find I could improve on the traingle choke. I found if you use your elbow on the arm around his head you can control his arm and keep it across his body and I could use my other arm to hook the leg so he can't stand up and drop me.

[Graham H]

I meant the biu jee as an idea as biu jee is what to do when the VT stuffs up and how to get back to what you want. I don't in anyway mean that it is VT. I agree with the ground being fun. When I first started I just wanted to learn how to get out and up but now I really like the whole ground game.
Not sure if I agree that the striking on the ground can't be done with VT. I find it means I don't over reach or twist stopping being swept, my elbow is in the help aid in any escapes from armbars etc (actually in shoot fighting you keep the elbow in when punching for those reasons), I have control and other reasons. All this can't be done without a good base and position as you would know.
Although I have found most times that I thought I was making it better by using my VT I was actually just doing it the way it should be done, for example when trying to pry the guys hands apart I would shoot my hand through like in a strike. Later I wasn't doing it and my mate told me to do exactly that. But I did find I could improve on the traingle choke. I found if you use your elbow on the arm around his head you can control his arm and keep it across his body and I could use my other arm to hook the leg so he can't stand up and drop me.

Bil Jee is what to do when VT stuffs up???? Bil Jee is VT. Its part of the whole. Getting back to what you want???? You mean regaining control of the center??? This idea is everywhere in VT. Not just BJ. BJ teaches us to think logically and reduce the risk of serious injury. It teaches us about situations where our normal direct attacking way has been comprimised and ultimately if the s**t hits the fan to try and escape.

Over analysing the ins and outs of a street fight is pointless. There are too many possibilites to consider. We train to make VT in our blood so we behave according to simple concepts. In this way we can react quickly without much thought.

At the end of the day if one were to get in a fight with a grappler or a big thug that can wrestle then maybe its your day to lose.

VT teaches us how to survive and take advantage of chances. If we are taken to the ground then we already have a problem. Looking to fight out way out by using MMA is stupid. We must gouge the eyes, attack the groin and use anything at hand to render the other guy unable to continue.

GH

[CFT]

Looking to fight out way out by using MMA is stupid. We must gouge the eyes, attack the groin and use anything at hand to render the other guy unable to continue.

Graham, how do you train these deadly techniques? Do your poor blind castrated training partners come back for more?

[Dragonzbane76]

Looking to fight out way out by using MMA is stupid. We must gouge the eyes, attack the groin and use anything at hand to render the other guy unable to continue.

LOLZZ

this goes to show the stupidity that is imbred into the traditional community. EVERYTHING is solved with the good old "deadly" eye gouge and groin attack. Realization doesn't come quick for sure.

Do people not realize that grappling either wrestling/greco Judo/BJJ is about control. Full control and domination. You think in the heat of a fight a strike to the groin is going to "fell" a guy pumped on adrenaline?

These kinds of comments go to propel that some people have no idea when it comes to ground fighting, the mechanics and the timing, positioning, defenses, etc. The ignorance is amazing.

[Frost]

LOLZZ

this goes to show the stupidity that is imbred into the traditional community. EVERYTHING is solved with the good old "deadly" eye gouge and groin attack. Realization doesn't come quick for sure.

Do people not realize that grappling either wrestling/greco Judo/BJJ is about control. Full control and domination. You think in the heat of a fight a strike to the groin is going to "fell" a guy pumped on adrenaline?

These kinds of comments go to propel that some people have no idea when it comes to ground fighting, the mechanics and the timing, positioning, defenses, etc. The ignorance is amazing.

i've now stopped training stand up, if i get into a fight with a wing chun guy standing I will just gouge, groin pinch and hit him with the nearest chair

[t_niehoff]

Graham, how do you train these deadly techniques? Do your poor blind castrated training partners come back for more?

ROFLOL! Awesome.

[CFT]

^^
If you're going to use "deadly techniques" then you're going to need some kind of conditioning regime and "simulator/substitute" to make sure you've got the "power" to actually do some damage (fan gan chor gwut (separating tendon, breaking bone)). But you're never going to really do it on a training partner are you? It's not like getting the submission in BJJ, etc.

Also, if you get caught out by a wrestler/grappler, you're probably not going to be in a position to gouge the eyes or attack the groin. Like DB67 says, the control is with the grappler.

[Graham H]

Graham, how do you train these deadly techniques? Do your poor blind castrated training partners come back for more?

Ha!! You should be on stage not in Kung Fu.....pmsl!!!!

Can you post some more or even more of your views on Vt because they are equally as entertaining!!!

GH

[CFT]

So how do you know your eye gouging and groin attacks work? Truthfully and honestly. Do you practice it with the same rigour as your "regular" VT?