Are my theories correct on this?

[tiaji1983]

a really really good player will be able to send u back very far, very easily. the far-thest i was ever tossed in air was just a mere 7 or 8 feet, but that was 7 or 8 feet through the air until landing. and it didnt feel like anything except maybe like a large breeze just picked me up and moved me.
and i didnt even give much force to be manipulated.

there are indeed a lot of fakery(if that is even a word), and a lot of exaggerations. and also ways to cheat and kinda set this up - but these are different. play with the right people and this type of skill isnt so uncommon.

btw, the auto-censoring on here is terrible and doesnt even allow some "clean" words, in case u noticed why "far-thest" is written that way.

I heard that before from semi experienced players that wouldnt yet be called masters, (not that Im doubting your skill, or saying you claim to be a master, just stating who I heard that from). When you were tossed in the air 7 or 8 feet, were you already off balance before you were tossed? Did the master do something subtle to upset your foundation? Or do you feel there was something more? Was it Qi? Do you feel you can repeat it or know how to repeat it even if you havent accomplished it yet?

Really? not uncommon? Where do you train?

Im sorry if I sound rude or condesending, Im not trying to, I really want to understand this so if its something I am missing I can learn how. I been told the secret is in the Kua and rooting, but I have played around with variations of both, and cannot create anything similar unless the opponent is already off balance.

[tiaji1983]

subitai and omar the fish...

To me it seems you are both right....

Omarthefish: For a strike as in punch, kick, dim mak, to be effective and cause the most physical harm, its best to strike a point that has stability to cause penetration. just like its pointless to stand up a 4x4 piece of wood with nothing supporting it and trying to hammer in a nail on one of its sides...

Subitai: If the opponent is off balance, and you strike, it will off balance them further and the force of your strike mixed with thier body wieght in that direction will surely send them to the ground or an object a few feet away. Also if someone attacks and the force is redirected, the force has to go that direction until something stops it, while it is going that direction it leaves the opponent open to attack.

Neither one of you are wrong, just offering 2 different true points and attacking the other for not understanding the other point, when Im sure you both truly understand. Im sorry for intruding on your conversation but it seems counterproductive. Pls let me know if Im misunderstanding either of your points or missing something.

[Subitai]

Nice try, I did not misquote. .

You quote me on this...

I.e. a master would never preffer to strike VS. an opponants strong point or Directly INTO that trajectory.

And in your own words, you read this and think i'm saying

"a Strong stance will protect you from getting hit"

Project you own thoughts onto other people much?

Once again, you just don't like it that I preffer to strike someone when they are weak. It's ok to disagree but stay with me on this.
I'm talking about answering Taiji1983's question about making a guy fly and you are hung up on the strike deal.



Soooooooooo back to the question that I was trying to answer

Originally Posted by tiaji1983
If someone has a good bow stance, and you push straight into the front, where the stance is more stable, that shouldnt happen, right?

Let me teach you something you may not realize yet:

In the context of Tai Chi, if someone is NOT in a good stance (ala off balance) when they are HIT... then they can be thrown back with a Strike OR a Push.

Basic example: "Press" in Tai Chi can be used as a Strike, a Push or steady pressure. Depends on how violent you want it to be. But it will not make a guy fly back if you attack straight into his power.

If I yield and make my opponant stumble slightly forward and I HIT (or strike or push) him at a line perpendicular to where his feet are on the floor...ala his weakest angle. He can easily be made to fly backwards.


This was the question at hand: Taiji 1983 asked about a GOOD STANCE. I was telling him NOT to attack in that power line. It's common Tai Chi Theory.



P.S. And yes I can do this vs resisting people (but it's stand up close fighting or stand up grappling) Of course impossible if it goes to the ground. Anyway, the end result is never a 15 foot Fly back like in the movies. Thats for Movies and for demos. But 2 or 3 steps is very possible and even better if they trip and fall down. Which also happens depending on if your around furniture for example. Haha

[tiaji1983]

"Let me teach you something you may not realize yet:

In the context of Tai Chi, if someone is NOT in a good stance (ala off balance) when they are HIT... then they can be thrown back with a Strike OR a Push.

Basic example: "Press" in Tai Chi can be used as a Strike, a Push or steady pressure. Depends on how violent you want it to be. But it will not make a guy fly back if you attack straight into his power.

If I yield and make my opponant stumble slightly forward and I HIT (or strike or push) him at a line perpendicular to where his feet are on the floor...ala his weakest angle. He can easily be made to fly backwards. "

Was that one directed towards me or Omar?

If it was, thats something Ive heard called "the seret of lines." basically there is a weak spot to any structure. If you strike the weak spot, you off balance the structure. a simple example could be either, if you access the opponent and push towards you on thier lower back, and away from you on their chest, they will lose balance and fall, or to you use bump to a good strong bow, you just need to access thier centerline and sink as you bump.

But if that wasnt directed towards me, sorry for responding...

[omarthefish]

Nice try, I did not misquote. .

You quote me on this...


And in your own words, you read this and think i'm saying

"a Strong stance will protect you from getting hit"

Project you own thoughts onto other people much?

lol. Thanks for proving my point about the projection. Now go back and find the post where I said that. You can't. You know why? Because I only think you said that in your imagination. You are arguing with yourself.

I'm talking about answering Taiji1983's question about making a guy fly and you are hung up on the strike deal.

No I actually wrote a nice long post responding to that part. I'm just trying to draw out what you actually are trying to stay because you are communicating so unclearly and, more than that, because I don't like having your moronic ideas shoved into my mouth. Ideas like your fantasy that I was answering the question with a reference to some section from the Taiji classics or that I was making some ridiculous irrelevant argument that "a strong stance will protect you from getting hit".

Btw, there is no Taiji principle of "yield into emptiness".

In the context of Tai Chi, if someone is NOT in a good stance (ala off balance) when they are HIT... then they can be thrown back with a Strike OR a Push.

Basic example: "Press" in Tai Chi can be used as a Strike, a Push or steady pressure. Depends on how violent you want it to be. But it will not make a guy fly back if you attack straight into his power.

If I yield and make my opponant stumble slightly forward and I HIT (or strike or push) him at a line perpendicular to where his feet are on the floor...ala his weakest angle. He can easily be made to fly backwards.

This was the question at hand: Taiji 1983 asked about a GOOD STANCE. I was telling him NOT to attack in that power line. It's common Tai Chi Theory.

Two problems with your theory.

1. You are pretending that pushing or throwing is the same as striking. The implication is that a strike is just a fast push. That is only true if you are practicing an empty form in the air. As soon as you are in relationship with another person, what makes for an effective push/throw is very different from what makes for an effective strike. The difference is in what tiaji1983 alluded to with the example of driving a nail into a 2x4.

2. As you get a better, your stance becomes less and less relevant. If you must keep using only Taiji specific examples (which I was trying to avoid) then you could go to a little demo I like to use to demonstrate to martial artists who have never been exposed to Taiji what the difference is. I'm not even very good, just good enough to do the demo. Generally I like to take a nice classic bow stance and challenge them to push me back by pushing along that strongest line of force, the one running from my chest to my back leg. That is exhibit A; it's my example of how they probably already understand what is meant by "a strong stance". Then I like to stand normally, feet shoulders width apart and invited them to try to push me back off that weakest line, the one that Scott described earlier. That's exhibit B. For that one, I use my arms to push the pusher a little bit, or pull them into me or whatever and adjust my body and neutralize their push using what little Taiji I know. To date, I have never met anyone without some sort of IMA training who could push me off me feet using the "weak stance". Remember, no sweeps or real grappling, just pushing. It's a demo, not a fight.

I'm gonna hate myself in the morning for saying this but.....*gdmmit*....Taiji principles are designed to work best from a point of weakness.

As an aside to someone else I know is probably reading this thread:
*you know who you are.....just don't....don't say it....*

[Subitai]

Ok Omar,

You are backpedaling now and you loose.


UM...On page 2 of this thread Post # 24... is where said: :

The broken logic you offer here, this idea that a strong stance can protect you from getting hit, is exactly why typical Karate or TKD or even Kenpo guys of 10 years ago were totally sitting ducks against Thai Boxers. Taking a good strong stance as a way of defending against a leg kick is just begging for either a broken leg or at least a leg that is rendered useless for the next 5 minutes or so and kind of purple and black for the next week.

So EAT man and you got it wrong and I just proved it. I was NOT saying that NOR implying that at all.


Theres nothing to draw out, I said something that doesn't Jive with your little world of striking. We can do this all day. And yes there is "Yield into Emptiness", the concept was passed to me by my own Sifu Years ago. "There are many ways to skin a cat"


There are no holes in my theory, Because i've done what I said I can do. Everything I do is hands on and tested. There are still many things I can't do...but on this point your clueless. Once again your obsessed with "Striking". But my previous post blew you out of the water and you didn't counter. If you lack experience with what i'm saying then, it's your problem.

The "Press" (PUSH or STRIKE) I spoke of was in terms of Kocking the guy back....Prefferably when he's in a weak stance. NOT whether a strike was Faster or better or equil to a push. Do you have A.D.D.???


In your last example 2, ala weak stance: HAHA, I've met so many people who think they can stand like that and they get pushed back off thier stance. It's called finding and Getting to the other persons center and i'm pretty darn good at it.

If nobody could do it to you, it's either because they don't attack your center, they either chase your arms or they plain suck. It's the easiest thing to defeat since you can't move your feet. You probably had Pu$$ies trying to push you on your shoulders. For peets sake, all you have to do it reach down (double hands and attack the dan tien) BOOM your gone. And you couldn't stop me from doing that. Because you can't move, i'll flow and follow your energy until I get you.

If we ever met and I couldn't knock you back off your weak stance i'd GIVE you my pride and joy....MY BASS BOAT!!!


Lastly :

I'm gonna hate myself in the morning for saying this but.....*gdmmit*....Taiji principles are designed to work best from a point of weakness.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[omarthefish]

Theres nothing to draw out, I said something that doesn't Jive with your little world of striking. We can do this all day. And yes there is "Yield into Emptiness", the concept was passed to me by my own Sifu Years ago.

Nope. You are misquoting the saying. I can provide a citation of the correct passage from the Taiji classics if you like. The term is "lead". That's a very different concept from "yielding". They are both related but not the same.

The "Press" (PUSH or STRIKE) I spoke of was in terms of Kocking the guy back....Prefferably when he's in a weak stance. NOT whether a strike was Faster or better or equil to a push.

I have not made an argument for what's better. I am simply pointing out that they are different. If you have knocked the guy back, then, pretty much by definition, that's a push.

Again, no need to go grasping at Taiji secrets here. The whole point of a strike is to break something. The point of a push is to move it. It's obviously not a binary thing and any impact can be more of a strike or more of a push but depending on what you want to do, you're approach should be different. That's just common sense.

In your last example 2, ala weak stance: HAHA, I've met so many people who think they can stand like that and they get pushed back off thier stance. It's called finding and Getting to the other persons center and i'm pretty darn good at it.

Hiding your center is not particularly important for that exercise. Giving the pusher direct access to your center can be a very useful way of uprooting them and tossing them off to the side. Your center becomes the lever under the middle of a seesaw and you just lever them over it. Like I said, so far it's only been people with IMA experience who can push me over. If I were to add grabbing and leg attacks in then I expect an average Judoka would have no problem either but I keep the demo simple in order to demonstrate the point which is basically:

There is no such thing as a strong stance.

All that counts is your ability to change. Dynamic balance is what counts. "Strong stances" are, in the big picture, not very useful.

It's the easiest thing to defeat since you can't move your feet. You probably had Pu$$ies trying to push you on your shoulders. For peets sake, all you have to do it reach down (double hands and attack the dan tien) BOOM your gone.

Yes. That's what most people think. It's like a party trick. Really, all you have to do to neutralize a dan tian push is to lift up under the elbows of the person pushing. If you have a little basic understanding of joint locks then you can do even better and pull them in towards yourself and create a joint lock on their hands and fingers.

Hiding your center is irrelevant.
Strong stances are irrelevant and focusing on them too much reduces agility.

[omarthefish]

p.s.

In your last example 2, ala weak stance: HAHA, I've met so many people who think they can stand like that and they get pushed back off thier stance. It's called finding and Getting to the other persons center and i'm pretty darn good at it.

It's quite possible that you could do that to me. If we met, I would definitely want to test it. As I did say, no one who has not trained in IMA
has been able to push me over in that test yet. I checked your profile and you list Taiji as a style and the link in your sig suggests that you even teach it so it could be an interesting challenge.

I use the exercise as a lesson for non Taiji people but also as a test for actual Taij people....to see if they have any taiji skill.

So it could be fun.

[Subitai]

Ok, #1 I got you, #2 I disagree, #3 No argument and lastly I think that pretty much covers it.

YOU CHALLENGED ME to find what you wrote and I did. DONE!!

FOR me...The purpose of a strike is not to break, but simply to penetrate the target with as much velocity and power as you can. Just like if I train heavy bag... It is a tool for power development. And you must NOT JUST hit the surface but PENETRATE the bag as if you could go through it.

However, If you strike a guy when he's off balance, he can be made to fall back and stumble. I know cause I kocked people back when Striking.


Like you said about your weak stance trick, it's a party trick and yes I do have IMA training. The goal for most Push hands IS TO CONTROL the center. So if your able to just give your center to someone and they can't succeed by countering you. They suck. For peets sakes, at that point you've already done your opponant a huge favor.


Strong stances, (Which again by the way I was NOT in favor of)......Are usefull but in small snapshots of time. It's like looking at frames on a roll of film.
The term Horse or "Ma" (romanization) reffers to a Horse. And a Horse is not a static standing still animal, it likes to run and move. So if your saying what I think your saying, I agree with you and we have no argument there....We never did.

You've pretty much admited that Tai Chi is not your strong suite so I don't know who your trying to convince here...surely not me.

Oh and by the way... I love your quote below

I'm gonna hate myself in the morning for saying this but.....*gdmmit*....Taiji principles are designed to work best from a point of weakness.

[omarthefish]

Seem to have lost my last response to the mysteries of the interwebs....here we go again....

YOU CHALLENGED ME to find what you wrote and I did. DONE!!

Yes. I can see that I quoted you in a way that you feel misrepresented what you were trying to say. Then I will rephrase it to say that you seem to be arguing that a strong stance will protect you from the effects of getting hit, a "stance" (forgive the pun) that I feel is untenable.

Ok, #1 I got you, #2 I disagree, #3 No argument and lastly I think that pretty much covers it.

Since I didn't number my points of include bullet points, could you clarify? The whole post isn't necessary, just an opening sentence from each point or brief recap.

However, If you strike a guy when he's off balance, he can be made to fall back and stumble. I know cause I kocked people back when Striking.

That can certainly happen but simple physics will tell you that their stumbling back is having the effect of dissipating the force of your strike. It looks dramatic but is indicative of a smaller percentage of the force of your strike being transferred to the target. Think of it this way...compare hitting 2 different people with a side kick. The first person is standing in the middle of the room. You kick him so hard he flies through the air a meter or so back and lands on his ass. The second person is standing with his back against the wall when you kick him. . . .

One of those two people is going to be hurting a lot more than the other.

Rooting, strong stance. Anything at all that keeps you in place is going to increase the damage you take when you get hit.

You've pretty much admited that Tai Chi is not your strong suite so I don't know who your trying to convince here...surely not me.

No. I actually haven't. You have read your own ideas into my post. I have made a point of avoiding Taiji theories when possible because an argument is stronger when it is based on universal assumptions. If I framed everything in terms of Taijiquan, then it would only hold water to that small percentage of people who make the a priori assumption that Taiji principles are absolute. Since the original topic is about wether or not certain kinds of Taiji demonstrations are fake, arguing from a set of base assumptions that come from within the Taiji cannon would be presenting a form of circular logic. So I have intentionally stepped outside of IMA theory in order to present a stronger case.

That being said, I will now, at this point in time, admit, that Taiji is not my strong suite. My primary art is Bajiquan. I train taiji as well but am not nearly as good at it as I am at Baji. Bajiquan, ironically, operates from a set of ideas contradictory to what I have been arguing for on this thread. I can argue that point as well but at the end of the day, even though I mainly train Baji and am much better at it, I can still step outside of that paradigm and objectively analyze what I am doing. From that perspective, IMO, Taijiquan is based on a more highly refined understanding of physics and physiology than Baji is.

[YouKnowWho]

That is the difference between a push and a strike. One causes the person to move and the other causes them to break.

That's the difference between a push and a throw. One causes the person to move and the other causes them to fall. Since "push" is neither strike nor throw, I truly don't know why we need to train it.

I don't think we should re-define CMA as kick, punch, push, lock, and throw.

[Subitai]

True Omar I made an assumption of your skill in Taiji,

But only cause of your post # 35,

Snip...

That's exhibit B. For that one, I use my arms to push the pusher a little bit, or pull them into me or whatever and adjust my body and neutralize their push using what little Taiji I know.

You know what they say about making assumptions right?

Lastly, I focused more on the Taiji point of view, mostly because if you read the original post / query that started this whole deal it's pretty obvious.

It's a taiji forum question, asked by a guy who does Taiji, asking about Taiji demonstrations and using Taiji terminology.



Haha,
"O"

[omarthefish]

That's the difference between a push and a throw. One causes the person to move and the other causes them to fall. Since "push" is neither strike nor throw, I truly don't know why we need to train it.

From a physics standpoint, I think a push is part of a throw. It's funny that people say a push is just a slow strike because I think of it, nowadays anyways, as more of an incomplete throw. As you have pointed out yourself at times, "press" combined with leg hooking is a very nice throw. That is how I was taught to use Xingyi's "hu pu"/tiger pouncing/虎扑。

True Omar I made an assumption of your skill in Taiji,

But only cause of your post # 35

When you train with a guy who has been doing Taiji for roughly 60 years, it puts your own understanding of it into perspective. I talk about Taiji online a lot more than Baji and worry sometimes that I will over represent where I stand with the art. I am probably really more qualified to talk about Baji but there is just less to talk about.

As far as the context of the original question, sticking to a strictly Taij point of view would be pointless. From a "taiji point of view" there is nothing whatsoever suspect about demos where the guy is "uncontrolably" pushed back like 15 feet. The only way it makes sense to evaluate whether something being done within the style is legit or not is to step outside of the context of the style and see if it still makes sense. I do not believe that there is anything in Taijiquan that allows you to break the laws of physics. Getting back to that original post:

In a lot of demonstrations that some people call Fa Jing or the Taiji Punch, they do a punch or a simple movement and the opponent moves back 15 feet. I understand that would be very easy to do if the opponent was off balance or attempting a step in either direction, or was retreating, you basically just follow their energy and add your own energy to it, with of course sinking and using the earth to push them away. Now I have seen some presentations, when the person being hit or pushed is in a strong stance, not moving, perfectly stable.

Really have to evaluate each instance specifically. I have seen plenty of demos where people cried fake where if you slowed down the video you could see what happened was pretty normal. Look at this clip of Wang Peisheng doing some stuff that looks, at first blush, pretty fake:

Pay special attention to the technique at 3:18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRlS3fBR2k0

[KTS]

tiaji1983. well, i only cited one example that was clear from memory. but about 8 feet through the air is correct.

so who threw me? a fairly well known guy from taiwan. known mostly for his baguazhang.

how i felt? well, it didnt really feel anything. i was expanding on some basic single palm change work we had just done. i started to check his front knee with mine while doing a fairly simple pattern. and, without feeling much at all, i got tossed upwards and backwards while spinning on an angle. i now have an idea what he did. but he did it so well it was not very detectable at that time.

kua, or root, or qi? i wouldnt say it is only one thing. but, tossing about a person seems a bit less spectacular for me now - except when done so cleanly u hardly can do anything about it. of course it is too late at that time unless u break a point. but, for it to happen cleanly, well it is amazing. like you get picked up by a giant gust of wind. so, you feel you think there is something else to it besides simply unbalancing a person? sure. there is - dont try to actually "lift" a person upwards.

[tiaji1983]

tiaji1983. well, i only cited one example that was clear from memory. but about 8 feet through the air is correct.

so who threw me? a fairly well known guy from taiwan. known mostly for his baguazhang.

how i felt? well, it didnt really feel anything. i was expanding on some basic single palm change work we had just done. i started to check his front knee with mine while doing a fairly simple pattern. and, without feeling much at all, i got tossed upwards and backwards while spinning on an angle. i now have an idea what he did. but he did it so well it was not very detectable at that time.

kua, or root, or qi? i wouldnt say it is only one thing. but, tossing about a person seems a bit less spectacular for me now - except when done so cleanly u hardly can do anything about it. of course it is too late at that time unless u break a point. but, for it to happen cleanly, well it is amazing. like you get picked up by a giant gust of wind. so, you feel you think there is something else to it besides simply unbalancing a person? sure. there is - dont try to actually "lift" a person upwards.

I learned a technique today where they grab your arms, you sink, send your Qi behind them or over their head, and as you shift your wieght forward, you use your shifting of weight to push your hands up, and had success throwing people that had no idea what I was doing and was resisting 6-8 feet back. Is that a similar technique? or is it more subtly pushing off balance and then fajing, as in gently pushing the chest with the palm and quickly shifting to Peng?