your striking methods?

[Hendrik]

The five elements are not the cogs, they're nonsense.

The 5 element theory does not reflect how the world or the human body actually works -- and to try to base your martial art on it is silly.



You've "redefined" the five elements to be eye, hand, body, waist, and leg.

The kuit tells us: Siu Nim Tao Lien Yiu Sen Ma - Siu Nim Tao trains the waist, torso and horse. The bridge hands are only extensions of the waist, torso, and horse. A tan sao, for instance, isn't just an arm movement but a whole body movement, and to perform it you need to use your whole body (it all moves).

You know, I always dont believe in the type of Kuit such as Siu Nim Tao Lien Yiu Sen Ma. This type of stuffs doesnt tell anything but lots of generalization for the listener to intepretate him/herself. This Kuit is worthless even it could be sound deep and secret in the Westerner's ear.

To be honest, this is a disease of Chinese since the ancient time. Often, Chinese do these stuffs because either they are clueless on the topic but want to sound expert or they purposely hiding something.


Tell me, which Set doesnt Train the Waist, Torso, and Horse?

The key of Kuit is to present the KEY. there is no Key present here at all. All these Empty Kuit which sound secretive and deep but totally empty or blanks are problematic stuffs if some one think they know these kuit is big deal.

Honestly, IMHO, I careless about this type of social wording stanza, this is not Kuit at all but fancy clearly say nothing.


The true kuit tell WHAT, HOW, WHEN in a very specific way. NO Gray No up for your interpretation. Why? because one will get result applying the Kuit ( big or small depend on the person but that has to be result) as one turn on the light switch, the lamp got to light up.


So, please burn away all those type of Kuit. look at the reality, follow the reality is much better then following those INCONCLUSIVE clear talking kuit which tell one NOTHING.



Am I drop a BOMB here? or people can take the reality well?

[t_niehoff]

You know, I always dont believe in the type of Kuit such as Siu Nim Tao Lien Yiu Sen Ma. This type of stuffs doesnt tell anything but lots of generalization for the listener to intepretate him/herself. This Kuit is worthless even it could be sound deep and secret in the Westerner's ear.

Interpretation is going to be a part of whatever you do. The kuit, btw, isn't to be taken by itself - nothing in WCK makes sense in and of itself - but in context. For example, in this case to underscore in a stationary form that you are not locking in a fixed horse (which many people mistakenly do) but learning to use your body even while stationary.

To be honest, this is a disease of Chinese since the ancient time. Often, Chinese do these stuffs because either they are clueless on the topic but want to sound expert or they purposely hiding something.

That may be true, but as I said, things need to be taken into context.

Tell me, which Set doesnt Train the Waist, Torso, and Horse?

True, they all do since they all use the YJKYM. But let's say you are teaching a beginner the SNT/SLT, and you want to highlight that you are not just using your arms (or elbows!) but that everything you do involves whole body power and comes from your center? Well, a kuit telling them that wouldn't be a bad idea. I know that I wish that I had been taught that when I first learned WCK.

The key of Kuit is to present the KEY. there is no Key present here at all. All these Empty Kuit which sound secretive and deep but totally empty or blanks are problematic stuffs if some one think they know these kuit is big deal.

Not all kuit need to talk about "the key" to be useful to a trainee. BTW, Sum Nung says "the key is sticking to the bridge of the opponent."

Honestly, IMHO, I careless about this type of social wording stanza, this is not Kuit at all but fancy clearly say nothing.

The true kuit tell WHAT, HOW, WHEN in a very specific way. NO Gray No up for your interpretation. Why? because one will get result applying the Kuit ( big or small depend on the person but that has to be result) as one turn on the light switch, the lamp got to light up.

Everything is open to interpretation. The kuit is poetic in form, and poetry isn't the language of precise, technical expression (which is also open to interpretation).

So, please burn away all those type of Kuit. look at the reality, follow the reality is much better then following those INCONCLUSIVE clear talking kuit which tell one NOTHING.

AS you yourself indicated, what doesn't use the waist, torso, and horse? So how is that kuit wrong? The kuit only provide direction for our journey, clues to keeping us on the path. The kuit can tell us to "stay as he comes" but it doesn't tell us how to do it, when to do it, where to do it, in a very specific way. It merely tells us that when pressure comes, we don't knock it away, run from it, etc. It provides direction, but not detail. That only comes from training.

[Hendrik]

AS you yourself indicated, what doesn't use the waist, torso, and horse? So how is that kuit wrong? The kuit only provide direction for our journey, clues to keeping us on the path.

Kuit, in the ancient Chinese meaning means " decision making word". meaning, when one is at that instant and condition and dont know what to do, the Kuit provide the direction to make that decision.


IMHO, Waist, torso, and horse are generic basic stuffs which not in the kuen Kuit's domain.

[t_niehoff]

Kuit, in the ancient Chinese meaning means " decision making word". meaning, when one is at that instant and condition and dont know what to do, the Kuit provide the direction to make that decision.


IMHO, Waist, torso, and horse are generic basic stuffs which not in the kuen Kuit's domain.

I think you are taking it too literally.

The kuit provide direction for your PRACTICE.

But it is only through you PRACTICE that you know what to do (or what YOU, the individual, can do).

[Hendrik]

I think you are taking it too literally.

The kuit provide direction for your PRACTICE.

But it is only through you PRACTICE that you know what to do (or what YOU, the individual, can do).

I tell you what the ancient Chinese mean. Up to you to take it as anything you like. But that is your view.

[t_niehoff]

I tell you what the ancient Chinese mean. Up to you to take it as anything you like. But that is your view.

Yes, I grant you that is what the word means . . . but I tell you that you are INTERPRETING it too literally (the word helps you make a decision in which direction to go with your practice, not what to specifically do in certain, specific situations). As I pointed out, the most famous of WCK kuit, lai lou hoi soong (stay as he comes, escort as he goes) like the rest of the kuit doesn't tell you the where, how, when -- the specifics -- but only provides a direction for your practice. It is your practice where you work out the specifics yourself.

[CFT]

Hendrik, I think you are steering Terence incorrectly on the "kuit" character.

Decision (決) is different to keyword(s) (訣)


決 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...rch.php?q=%A8M

訣 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...rch.php?q=%B3Z (in particular 要訣)

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, I think you are steering Terence incorrectly on the "kuit" character.

Decision (決) is different to keyword(s) (訣)


決 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...rch.php?q=%A8M

訣 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...rch.php?q=%B3Z (in particular 要訣)

Great.


Take a look on what does 訣 means in ancient writing such as The enligtement song.


大象不遊於兔經
The great elephant does not loiter on the rabbit's path.

大悟不拘於小節。
Great enlightenment is not concerned with details.


莫將管見謗蒼蒼。
Don't belittle the sky by looking through a pipe.

未了吾今為君訣。
If you still don't understand, I will settle it for you.

[LoneTiger108]

The five elements are not the cogs, they're nonsense.

The 5 element theory does not reflect how the world or the human body actually works -- and to try to base your martial art on it is silly.

You've "redefined" the five elements to be eye, hand, body, waist, and leg.

I haven't 'redefined' anything, as this was how I was taught. If anyone has used their general knowledge of medicine and ancient practises and redefined it in Wing Chun terms it was Lee Shing.

FWIW The 5 elements is exactly how the human body works, you just have to experience it during teaching and feel why. It is part of a larger whole, but that's another debate.

The kuit tells us: Siu Nim Tao Lien Yiu Sen Ma - Siu Nim Tao trains the waist, torso and horse. The bridge hands are only extensions of the waist, torso, and horse. A tan sao, for instance, isn't just an arm movement but a whole body movement, and to perform it you need to use your whole body (it all moves).

What's the character for 'Sen'? I've heard Yiu San(body) Ma, but actually in the order of San Yiu Ma.

I think the kuit you mention is 'hinting' that you shouldn't forget that the SNT needs the other 3 arrivals trained for it to be effective. Strange that it doesn't mention the hand or eye? Considering that they're the OBVIOUS elements being trained in basic practise.

The kuit type literature I have been exposed to seems to be so much more in depth than the quotes you throw out here. It interests me, but I somehow agree with Hendrik on this one...

[t_niehoff]

I haven't 'redefined' anything, as this was how I was taught. If anyone has used their general knowledge of medicine and ancient practises and redefined it in Wing Chun terms it was Lee Shing.

Then your teacher got it wrong.

Moreover, to even think that a false paradigm like the 5 Elements and its associated theory can help you develop athletic skill is crazy.

You have an unhealthy love for Lee Shing who you've never even met. Let it go. Yes, he was a pioneer in bringing WCK to the West. But he was nothing special, no more than many others.

FWIW The 5 elements is exactly how the human body works, you just have to experience it during teaching and feel why. It is part of a larger whole, but that's another debate.

It is pure nonsense.

What's the character for 'Sen'? I've heard Yiu San(body) Ma, but actually in the order of San Yiu Ma.

Sen, san is slightly different romanizations for body/torso.

I think the kuit you mention is 'hinting' that you shouldn't forget that the SNT needs the other 3 arrivals trained for it to be effective. Strange that it doesn't mention the hand or eye? Considering that they're the OBVIOUS elements being trained in basic practise.

You are not training the eye.

The kuit mentions what the focus of the SNT is -- body structure. The hands/arms are only projections of that body structure.

The kuit type literature I have been exposed to seems to be so much more in depth than the quotes you throw out here. It interests me, but I somehow agree with Hendrik on this one...

Then you should get exposed to more.

[LoneTiger108]

Then your teacher got it wrong.

Moreover, to even think that a false paradigm like the 5 Elements and its associated theory can help you develop athletic skill is crazy.

Okay

My teacher is wrong and I'm crazy. Sounds like I'm returning to the nineties! I will let him know, and mention that Lee Shing must have also had the training wrong, after his lifetimes research and dedication, he was wrong. I'm sure he will listen to you T

On a 'real' note here, I will ask everyone who trained in my generation if they did or did not feel and understand the use of 5 elements with their Chun, coz I'm sure I wasn't the only one.

'Wrong' is a strong word mate. 'Different than you' is probably how I would have phrased it, but that's what I luv about the T man!

[t_niehoff]

Okay

My teacher is wrong and I'm crazy. Sounds like I'm returning to the nineties! I will let him know, and mention that Lee Shing must have also had the training wrong, after his lifetimes research and dedication, he was wrong. I'm sure he will listen to you T

On a 'real' note here, I will ask everyone who trained in my generation if they did or did not feel and understand the use of 5 elements with their Chun, coz I'm sure I wasn't the only one.

'Wrong' is a strong word mate. 'Different than you' is probably how I would have phrased it, but that's what I luv about the T man!

You post reveals your bias -- that Lee Shing can't be wrong, after all he spent his life training WCK.

Wrong.

Just because Lee Shing taught it -- and we don't even know if he did -- that doesn't make it right. Yes, "after his lifetimes research and dedication, he was wrong". It happens. Get over it.

There is lots of crap in WCK. In fact, there is loads more crap than good. Yes, your 5 Elements is nonsense.


It is different -- and wrong.

[LoneTiger108]

You post reveals your bias -- that Lee Shing can't be wrong, after all he spent his life training WCK.

No. Learn to read!

'Wrong' is a strong word mate. 'Different than you' is probably how I would have phrased it

Just because Lee Shing taught it -- and we don't even know if he did --

You may not know if he did, but I do T.

There is lots of crap in WCK. In fact, there is loads more crap than good. Yes, your 5 Elements is nonsense.

Enuff of your anti-traditional views T. That shines through your posts too.

Man, throw something at you that you don't understand and it's toys out the pram