Differences between Hung Sing & Buk Sing CLF

[CLFNole]

Not to be a wise arse but would anyones rule be FIGHT TO LOSE?

[hskwarrior]

well, i think that would be "FU POW, and KNIFEFIGHTER"

[nospam]

You will not win a fight with defense. Bak Hsing's defense is being in the right spot and this is why we practise offense because the right spot is through the spot where the opponent is standing. I tell my students walk into that punch! Step into the kick! Be lively about it!

To be truthful, Bak Hsing's offense is our defense. As we step into the punch your chune sau (block) better be dam good. We train the way we fight around the intermediate level - why? because the foundation has just been laid and now the good stuff works (of course certain aspects of the style are never revealed to the un-initiated..this is why there are many thoughts out there on how Bak Sing is played..a lot of people were outside the door but still long time students).

So for a person with some Bak Hsing skill, 'the best defense is a better offense'. There is no distinction as our style doesn't allow it. Of course we go through many a defensive drill as the student learns techniques that are broken into pieces...

nospam.

[hskwarrior]

You will not win a fight with defense. Bak Hsing's defense is being in the right spot and this is why we practise offense because the right spot is through the spot where the opponent is standing. I tell my students walk into that punch! Step into the kick! Be lively about it!

To be truthful, Bak Hsing's offense is our defense. As we step into the punch your chune sau (block) better be dam good. We train the way we fight around the intermediate level - why? because the foundation has just been laid and now the good stuff works (of course certain aspects of the style are never revealed to the un-initiated..this is why there are many thoughts out there on how Bak Sing is played..a lot of people were outside the door but still long time students).

So for a person with some Bak Hsing skill, 'the best defense is a better offense'. There is no distinction as our style doesn't allow it. Of course we go through many a defensive drill as the student learns techniques that are broken into pieces...just like what patterns are. They are complete movements broken down into steps or stages for the newbie. Then as you progress, the movements NEED to be put back in proper 'real time'. They flow together...1-2 techniques turn into 1 technique. Anywho..

correction. you will not win a fight with defense ALONE. However, if you can't hit me your offense won't win the fight either. its a very frustrating feeling when all your stuff gets stopped in its tracks and you can't touch that person. Even in the UFC Machida showed that when he fought Tito Ortiz. and that THERE is ONE fighting strategy. In all actuality, the only true way to know if your martial arts is effective is to either 1) get into street fights 2) enter competition 3) spar alot with different people, styles, strangers....whatever.

To be truthful, Bak Hsing's offense is our defense. As we step into the punch your chune sau (block) better be dam good. We train the way we fight around the intermediate level - why? because the foundation has just been laid and now the good stuff works (of course certain aspects of the style are never revealed to the un-initiated..this is why there are many thoughts out there on how Bak Sing is played..a lot of people were outside the door but still long time students).

if that works for you that's all for the best. But, IMHO, that's a one sided story because it conjures up the idea of "TUNNEL VISION". one focus. The only thing i can say is that I hope you have answer to when the person you're fighting actually fights back as hard as you. A fight is so unpredictable, a moving target is is very hard to strike, and you don't actually know the skill level of the person you're fighting. He or she can be just as aggressive and skilled as you. It's my personal opinion it's best to be well rounded. there are some that will exploit area's where THEY might think you're weak.

Not directed anywhere, but, i feel that its best to always fear that there is someone else better, faster, stronger, and more aggressive than you. This way you will always strive to improve, no ceiling stopping you that way. you train hard with the idea of you always need to train harder cause you don't know when you're going to get your a$$ kicked. (That's funny, the english language. For some reason i just don't get the image of someone kicking you in your a$$ i.e. a$$ kicked - being equivalent to getting beat down to your very last compound.) Rah!

So for a person with some Bak Hsing skill, 'the best defense is a better offense'. There is no distinction as our style doesn't allow it. Of course we go through many a defensive drill as the student learns techniques that are broken into pieces...just like what patterns are. They are complete movements broken down into steps or stages for the newbie. Then as you progress, the movements NEED to be put back in proper 'real time'. They flow together...1-2 techniques turn into 1 technique. Anywho..

I see your point. Still, i've seen the youtube gong sau's, and the ring matches satori science posted i believe, and those from the lacey's buk sing, including the match between Vince Lacey's school vs. tat mau wong's school. And tat mau's school was bringing it to the Buk Sing guy. The aggression is there and clear techniques were shown, but, in the end, what i've watched were the same things i grew up on training in my school.

In regards to defense, i disagree with you in the sense that having a good defense is useless. if you side step a technque you used defense. if you block and strike simultaneously, you've used defense. to be honest YOU USE DEFENSE. you may call it offense. if you use Kwa as a bridging move, and i've seen buk sing do it, then you've used defense. buk sing uses a block and a chop choy simultaneously (same as hung sing)...you've used defense.

I believe in having a great defense for the fact that in real life situations, defense has saved the lives of my classmate and my students. My classmate, drunk off his arse was chopping it up with some girl when her boyfriend suddenly appeared. they got into an argument and the boyfriend left. my classmate was still chopping it up with the girl when he said 'out of the corner of my eye i saw something shiny and i instinctively used one of our blocks. luckily for him he did because the Machete chopped thru his hand right between the middle and ring fingers. if he didn't, he would have been missing a huge chunk of his head. Afterwards, he attributed it to our method of training and usage of defense that it saved his life.

My former student, like i've mentioned many times in the past now has attributed our style and approach to saving his life more than once. When my student got stabbed by the 5-7 guys that was the second encounter he had with those guys. the first one was they thought because they were in numbers that they were going to mob up on my student and his friend. HERE IS A PIC OF THAT NIGHT My student is the one with his shirt open and hand bandaged up. as you can see his friend got the most damage. probably cause he didn't train with me LOL.

Because my student whooped some arse that night, these same guys decided to post up near his house waiting for him to come home. when he passed their car they jumped out and had screw drivers and knives. this time they intended to kill him. but because of our training, although he got stabbed a number of times he was able to hold them off till the cops got there. in fact, he was in the middle of effing one of em up when the cops pulled him off.

as his teacher i wanted to know if my student used his gung fu so i asked the witnesses what they saw him do exactly and they physically showed me. it was cup choy's and i was told later that one of those dudes lost the whole front row of his teeth. One of the guys had their eyes swollen shut. I wasn't going to believe anyone but people who were their, and i still didn't trust their word. so thats why i asked them to show me what they saw him using.

See, we all have our approaches to combat. defensively speaking, i'm not going to stand there and JUST BLOCK your strikes. like you, i will block and strike simultaneously, while you may drive forward one way, we have our way of driving forward. And, if i strike and you move in, do you think i'm just going to let you strike me? do you assume i'm not going to move? block and strike back? because if someone was to underestimate me in that manner, they will see the light.

o for a person with some Bak Hsing skill, 'the best defense is a better offense'. There is no distinction as our style doesn't allow it. Of course we go through many a defensive drill as the student learns techniques that are broken into pieces...just like what patterns are. They are complete movements broken down into steps or stages for the newbie. Then as you progress, the movements NEED to be put back in proper 'real time'. They flow together...1-2 techniques turn into 1 technique. Anywho..

we do the same thing brother.

[Violent Designs]

Buk Sing is generally (intrinsically) offensive and aggressive. Everything nospam said is right on, but I think a good "defense" cannot be over rated.

If a guy is better at counter attacking you and making you miss all day then man you're gonna have a hard day at the office.

That is, their defensive skills > your offensive skills.

Someone like Machida as already mentioned, who's better at fighting moving backwards than going forwards.

Juan Manuel Marquez is also better at fighting moving backwards and defensively, than moving forwards and chasing people. This is how he ****ed up Pacquiao, we all know Pac-Man is a ****ing beast, aggressive, offensive, FAST AS ****.

Marquez is... not that fast, not that strong, just not that athletic. But with superior defense, superior timing and a very tactical mind he was able to **** up Pac-Man once he got his timing and stuff down. (this a pure ring-fighting example so only parts of it will translate into a street fight since Pac-Man did knock him down three times in the first round, on the street you're already dead at this point).

Even Floyd Mayweather is a good example (although he's more well-rounded than Marquez), u got somebody like Muhammad Ali, etc, etc.

[hskwarrior]

extrajoseph,

this thread isn't for your kind here. you're a disinformationist.....no one cares what you have to say here.

[extrajoseph]

I erased the other thread cause its main focus was trying to get extrajoseph to answer a question for me. So i decided to keep the last part of that thread going on right here. And i wanted to clear up some things.

Hi Frank,

Looks like you are asking me for an answer, so here is my two cents worth, but you have to bear in mind I considered your so-called Chan family is also HS, Futsan or otherwise, when compared with BS.

Generally speaking TCMA is not jut about fighting and winning, it is also about self-cultivation and self realization (文武雙全).

IMO ("O" for opinion and observation), BS tends to put more emphasis on the martial (or more on the "raw" or the "basic" as some would put it) whereas HS tries to pass on both the martial and the civil, hence there are more forms, more theories, more strategies, more philosophies and more "subtle/internal" movements in HS than in BS.

The traditional Chinese believed thinking is also a part of fighting, to be able to win a fight without fighting is the ultimate goal in TCMA.

So if we want a catch-phrase (or generalization) to describe the differences between the two, then HS is a thinking-man's CLF whereas BS is a fighting-man's CLF. Each to their own.

If you want to see examples of how HS fights against BS, I remember seeing some video of Lacey bros students fighting with Chan Yong Fa's student during a William Cheung's tournament in Melbourne a few years back, but I am not sure if the video are still available.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

Hi Frank,

Looks like you are asking me for an answer, so here is my two cents worth, but you have to bear in mind I considered your so-called Chan family is also HS, Futsan or otherwise, when compared with BS.

Generally speaking TCMA is not jut about fighting and winning, it is also about self-cultivation and self realization (文武雙全).

IMO ("O" for opinion and observation), BS tends to put more emphasis on the martial (or more on the "raw" or the "basic" as some would put it) whereas HS tries to pass on both the martial and the civil, hence there are more forms, more theories, more strategies, more philosophies and more "subtle/internal" movements in HS than in BS.

The traditional Chinese believed thinking is also a part of fighting, to be able to win a fight without fighting is the ultimate goal in TCMA.

So if we want a catch-phrase (or generalization) to describe the differences between the two, then HS is a thinking-man's CLF whereas BS is a fighting-man's CLF. Each to their own.

If you want to see examples of how HS fights against BS, I remember seeing some video of Lacey bros students fighting with Chan Yong Fa's student during a William Cheung's tournament in Melbourne a few years back, but I am not sure if the video are still available.

XJ

i'm sorry what did you say? we don't appreciate your disinformation here dude. sorry....

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

If you think my opinion is disinformation, then I have nothing more to say, even though I have some further opinions on the technical and teaching differences between the two branches.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

Hi Frank,

If you think my opinion is disinformation, then I have nothing more to say, even though I have some further opinions on the technical and teaching differences between the two branches.

XJ

I wish you'd keep your mouth quiet. You don't know the lau bun lineage of Hung Sing CLF and how we do, think, act, or feel. but like you said it is only your opinion and EVERYONE has one of those.

plus, you're a chan family disinformationist once again trying to insert chan heung into the face of Jeung Hung Sing. this thread is about the differences between the Hung Sing Fut San lineage and the buk sing lineage. you don't even belong on this thread as you are the outsider here to the topic.

[hskwarrior]

joseph,

you're really full of yourself. here you are AGAIN from your chan family point of view, trying force feed us your BS and i don't mean BUK SING. How dare you ignore a question i asked you with some honesty, then you come impose yourself all in business you have no right to be in.

In regards to Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut 佛山鴻勝蔡李佛 you are the student I am the master. LOL.....keep your opinions, they have nothing of any kind truthful bearing in regards to my lineage.

[Violent Designs]

So if we want a catch-phrase (or generalization) to describe the differences between the two, then HS is a thinking-man's CLF whereas BS is a fighting-man's CLF. Each to their own.

I am not sure if I agree with you on this. In regards to more philosophical aspects then you are perhaps right, most likely anyhow in the general scheme of things.

But fighting takes much thought in-and-of-itself. It requires astute tactical innovation, psychological reconditioning (getting hit, getting hurt, REALLY hurt and continuing the action), a high level of technique, fearlessness, and even the character to know when to STOP fighting.

I also feel that when fighting, whether it is the ring or street, but in a serious confrontation with an opponent intent on stopping you and hurting you, there is something quite serene or zen-like in that moment.

Perhaps I should say.... hard, painful, contested combat is one of the most truthway ways to express oneself HONESTLY. You can bullsh1t all you want but during the fight, there is only honesty. You either win or lose, survive or die.

[nospam]

IMO BS tends to put more emphasis on the martial whereas HS tries to pass on both the martial and the civil, hence there are more forms, more theories, more strategies, more philosophies and more "subtle/internal" movements in HS than in BS. You know, I'd agree with that statement, Bak Hsing is more focused on the martial (always has) and tends to get to the nitty-gritty sooner or so my teacher explained it.

The traditional Chinese believed thinking is also a part of fighting, to be able to win a fight without fighting is the ultimate goal in TCMA. I'd disagree here. One does not train to fight for years/decades not to be martially capable. I think that may be the ultimate goal for pacifists, not TCMAist. Thinking is obviously part of any MA.

So if we want a catch-phrase (or generalization) to describe the differences between the two, then HS is a thinking-man's CLF whereas BS is a fighting-man's CLF. Each to their own. Again, disagree. You are assuming fighting is not a thinking mans' game. Boxing is a science. If you will, TCMAs originated from observing and analysing nature and its movement. The advancement of martial study occured through advances in technology. Your statement is over-generalised.

I would hazzard a guess that CLF was a marketing argonaut, fueled by its own success...popularity, and partially from the ego of its many masters. CLF exploded throughout southern China. It isn't an old style by general comparison. Lost scrolls were soon found and much was added after associations & fraternities sprung up. I would agree then..this is a thinking mans' style. And Bak Hsing is historically recogised as the fists. Interesting this, even in short historical time many CLF practitioners were becoming ineffectual.

nospam.

[hskwarrior]

Gung fu is too much filled with wierdo's, pacifists, and religious nuts. But, I don't agree that Buk Sing is identified as being the FISTS of CLF, much based on the reasoning that Tam Sam was defeated by a few Hung Sing fighters. So, IMHO, to defeat TAM SAM indicates that Hung Sing were also some serious fighters. And, you cannot FIGHT without evolving unless you're an nincompoop. If alot of schools were not into fighting or evolving, then i give full credit to the Buk Sing lineage.

Tam Sam may have been a great fighter, but he wasn't the only one. Recognized even by other systems in or around fut san Jeung Hung Sing was considered one of southern China's greatest fighters. Chan Ngau Sing himself was one of the most feared fighters. From what i understand Tong Sek was no joke neither. Hung Sing students from fut san were using their CLF in constant battle on the regular back then whether it be defending against gangsters, masters, or foreignors.

Professor Lau Bun was defeated by one of Yuen Hai's students and is the entire reason why he came over to study Hung Sing Kuen. In the USA, Prof. Lau Bun's martial arts abilities impacted almost all of the martial arts in america at that time since no one had even seen it before coming of bruce lee, who, himself found out first hand about the fighters of HUNG SING. who do you think chased him away, the tai chi guys?

From the 1920's till the time of Prof. Lau Bun's passing in 1967 the chinese had some really tough times to exist through. Racism and violence from their own countrymen plagued the lives of my elders. Still, they were tough, not afraid to fight and in some cases even looked for some drama. Knowing how to fight was an unwritten Hung Sing prerequisite and was the reason why afer trying out so many other systems found our personally that Hung Sing under my sifu was a school of tough kids who took their gung fu very seriously.

Till this day we still take it very seriously. So for to say the Buk Sing lineage was the fist of CLF is a purposeful exclusion of the Hung Sing Kwoon who has a proven track record of being fighters. And one of our mantra's is "PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!!"

[nospam]

..who do you think chased him away, the tai chi guys? Now that's funny.

Commenting more on the past is moot since none of us were there. Suffice it to say that those kwoons that compiled and created pattern after pattern are from the same mold of those in today's MA world that collect and spend inordinate amount of time on patterns.

There are some Bak Hsing kwoons that delve into the 10 core patterns of Bak Shaolin. I never understood the allure myself as they just execute techniques wrong...well awkwardly IMO. I know of some of the skills that were carried into Bak Hsing from this cross-over but I know too little of that style to assess where some of the fighting technique was melded into ours.

Fut Gar ~ One Love

nospam.