Qigong not really practical for health

[GLW]

First, Qi Gong is not a panacea for everything. In the best of situations, it can take much longer than a few weeks to produce lasting changes.

Second, anyone with a medical condition would do better to get the condition under control and then supplement things with Qi Gong. In many cases, after the meds get blood pressure or whatever under control, regular Qi Gong practice can allow the person to reduce or in some cases, totally eliminate the meds over time. But again, it is about being patient and seeing what works.

Third, as stated, not all Qi Gong methods are created equal. In many cases, those with high blood pressure have to be very careful. It is not uncommon for blood pressure to elevate slightly with certain Qi Gong methods. It is for this reason that a good TCM doctor who is versed in Qi Gong is a good bet. The TCM doctor can tailor the Qi Gong practice to fit the person and situation. Also, as things progress, other adjustments to the method of practice may be needed.

It is easier to practice Qi Gong when healthy to maintain health than it is to start a practice of Qi Gong to alleviate a medical problem when the problem is in full swing.

[taai gihk yahn]

the thing that I am always concerned about is cross-systems application of a modality; meaning that qigong was developed from a classical Chinese medicine perspective, so its prescription is really based on diagnosing someone using that system; when you start using qigong for "western" (I hate the term, but whatever, not going to get on that soapbox right now) diagnoses, you are really using it incorrectly - for example, you might have 5 different TCM patterns that included HTN as one of the symptoms - and therefore you would, technically, need 5 different qigong prescriptions to resolve each of those imbalance patterns; so, because HTN on its own is really not something TCM would work with in isolation, there really isn't a qigong for HTN - because each HTN patient may have a different TCM pattern;

[taai gihk yahn]

But in my own opinion. Qigong and Taiji helped me with Femoral Patela Pain Syndrome, a slight case of Asthma, and High Blood Pressure. Also when I practice daily, just as if I were to just do physical exercise, I wont get sick, even if I just do Qigong and no physical exercises.

FPPS is usually due to imbalance elsewhere, like the hips and pelvis, but the knee bears the brunt of it; these areas are often congested due to chronic low grade inflammation that doesn't resolve because many people are living in a chronic low grade sympathetic / stress response mode; doing qigong involves activities that stimulate parasympathetic tone, thereby decreasing local and systemic inflammation, which is why things like low back pain can "disappear", elimination improve, and blood pressure to go down; so that's why u can do stationary / seated qigong and still have an effect; of course moving qigong / taiji will help as well to loosen tight areas that are stuck in a chronic holding pattern;

I know people Taiji and Qigong helped with Back Pain, Balance issues, Digestive problems, Acid Reflux, Arthritis, and Memory Problems.

no surprises, really; but I guarantee you that any program of slow, intentioned, socially oriented movement would do pretty much the same - especially if they had been sedentary beforehand...in fact, the profile you describe could easily be one person who has chronic dysfunction of the respiratory diaphragm muscle, which slow, gentle breathing could help relieve and cause improvement in all these areas; but it's not unique to qigong / taiji

[QUOTE=tiaji1983;1044757]My teacher has students that I met that recovered from Paralyzation and Heart conditions,
too vague to speak to;

also some people who were on terminal cancer that had thier expiration date that the Doctor gave them extended.

that happens all the time, with or without qigong; it is largely based on that docs give an estimate, because they really never know for certain;

It also improved thier quality of living and made them less sick during chemo.

of course, for all the reasons given above

I also know someone with a brain anuerism that says Da Mo's seated xi sui jin helps him deal with his treatments better.

no different than someone saying that knitting or praying to Baal helped them deal with their treatment

Ive also seen the theories behind the martial arts and Qigong help people recover from depression and bad life decisions. Not everyone, but some people...

"the foreign ginger is always more interesting"; meaning that we often need to do something outside of our normal context in order to resove issues within that normal context; it's why people have always sought out exotic answers to issues that they could have just as well dealt with locally - but that is human nature, it would seem

So if this does not say it is beneficial to practice it for health purposes, I dont know what is.

of course it's beneficial; but it does not necessarily confer this intrinsically

It may not be everyone's cup of tea, and its not a miracle cure.

there are no miracles; everything that happens, happens because the innate potential is there; we just may not have fully articulated the mechanism behind it, so it seems miraculous

But if it works, even if its just cuz its in the practitioners head, then it works.

there's no such thing as "just in your head" - if you have a belief that something will help you, it is not just in your head, because you get a bodywide physiological response; as far as not knowing or caring why that it works, wel, that's fine, but then one needs must avoid the danger of ovegeneralizing the results...

[Xiao3 Meng4]

When I start getting sick, I get uncoordinated: dizzy, fuzzy-head, weak, sometimes shaky limbs, and a feeling that everything is just a few millimeters off from where I think/feel it is.

Then I get a fever. I let it run rampant and do not bring it down with medication. Fever is an important component to healing. How I interact with it is a kind of Qigong. Most times, I drink lots of water, help the fever along with heat, and sleep.

When I get better, my energy levels rise again, I'm no longer dizzy or fuzzy headed, but I still feel slightly weak and uncoordinated, as though my nervous system shrank slightly.

This feeling is something I consciously work at preventing and/or correcting. A healthy nervous system means a healthy internal diagnostic system - which means early warning for injury, illness or infection.

So I do my Qigong. I find that by doing a form, it's possible to reclaim my coordination very quickly and I feel completely better soon after.

I do static relaxation Qigong during injury healing, moving Qigong for injury rehab, moving Qigong for joint health and core work, and either static or moving relaxation qigong for mental-emotional rebalancing and stabilization.

One of the benefits of Qigong is posture correction. Posture is a vital component to maintaining and developing good health. Correcting poor posture can alleviate many symptoms, including, in come cases, High blood Pressure. Proper posture also requires less energy to maintain, freeing up reserves for anything and everything from muscle exertion to brain work to metabolic and immunologic enhancement.

I therefore find Qigong to be practical for health.

[woliveri]

the thing that I am always concerned about is cross-systems application of a modality; meaning that qigong was developed from a classical Chinese medicine perspective, so its prescription is really based on diagnosing someone using that system; when you start using qigong for "western" (I hate the term, but whatever, not going to get on that soapbox right now) diagnoses, you are really using it incorrectly - for example, you might have 5 different TCM patterns that included HTN as one of the symptoms - and therefore you would, technically, need 5 different qigong prescriptions to resolve each of those imbalance patterns; so, because HTN on its own is really not something TCM would work with in isolation, there really isn't a qigong for HTN - because each HTN patient may have a different TCM pattern;

No, this is not what I was talking about. In Qigong, there are standing, sitting, breath based, alignment base, forced and more. Then there are the new age type qigong exercises which I feel have little or no benefit. Anyway, I'm saying you can't give a beginner forced or strong methods. This is an internal exercise. You need to determine where that person is in regards to health and internal strength before you give that individual an exercise.

I would see it as a Beginning, intermediate, advanced scenario rather than trying to find a qigong for a specific condition.

To the OP, I would suggest standing Wuji which is quite benign but very effective for health. It just takes time. Results come in months and years, not days and weeks.

[taai gihk yahn]

No, this is not what I was talking about.

well, considering that I wasn't addressing my remarks to anything you posted, that would make sense...

In Qigong, there are standing, sitting, breath based, alignment base, forced and more. Then there are the new age type qigong exercises which I feel have little or no benefit. Anyway, I'm saying you can't give a beginner forced or strong methods. This is an internal exercise. You need to determine where that person is in regards to health and internal strength before you give that individual an exercise.

I agree

I would see it as a Beginning, intermediate, advanced scenario rather than trying to find a qigong for a specific condition.

I would personally never give qigong to anyone for any medical condition if I were not a licensed medical practitioner (which includes TCM docs / licensed acupuncturists); any other qigong given outside of this context is recreational (or however one wants to call it) but it's not prescriptive per se

To the OP, I would suggest standing Wuji which is quite benign but very effective for health. It just takes time. Results come in months and years, not days and weeks.

it depends; I believe that someone can derive benefit from standing practice rather quickly, if the person working with them knows what to look for and how to utilize the changes that come about, such that the person gets appropriate feedback; for example, Alexander Technique lessons are in many ways similar to standing wuji practice, and people derive benefit from that pretty quickly when working with an experienced teacher; in my personal experience, I have worked on standing with patients and used it as a way of improving certain things relatively quickly, although admittedly in conjunction with other modalities, such as manual therapy (and let's be honest, a well articulated series of manipulation of the spine and accompanying soft tissue work can dramatically reduce the time that one would need to spend correcting such issues via standing practice alone; of course, if you only do the manual work and not the practice, the restrictions will come back)

[woliveri]

I would personally never give qigong to anyone for any medical condition if I were not a licensed medical practitioner (which includes TCM docs / licensed acupuncturists); any other qigong given outside of this context is recreational (or however one wants to call it) but it's not prescriptive per se

That depends on the what "medical condition" we are talking about. Asthma? IBS? Stomach or Duodenal Ulcer? Restless Leg Syndrome

These are different from Diabetes, High Blood pressure, etc.

it depends; I believe that someone can derive benefit from standing practice rather quickly, if the person working with them knows what to look for and how to utilize the changes that come about, such that the person gets appropriate feedback; for example, Alexander Technique lessons are in many ways similar to standing wuji practice, and people derive benefit from that pretty quickly when working with an experienced teacher; in my personal experience, I have worked on standing with patients and used it as a way of improving certain things relatively quickly, although admittedly in conjunction with other modalities, such as manual therapy (and let's be honest, a well articulated series of manipulation of the spine and accompanying soft tissue work can dramatically reduce the time that one would need to spend correcting such issues via standing practice alone; of course, if you only do the manual work and not the practice, the restrictions will come back)

Yes, I agree with your reply on time and results. When I said months and years I'm talking about seeing the accumulation of Qi and opening of Channels. Of course one can relieve stress immediately and since a lot of conditions are the result of stress then those conditions can improve.

[taai gihk yahn]

That depends on the what "medical condition" we are talking about. Asthma? IBS? Stomach or Duodenal Ulcer? Restless Leg Syndrome

These are different from Diabetes, High Blood pressure, etc.

it doesn't matter - unless one is a licensed health-care practitioner whose scope of practice encompasses prescriptive movement, one should not give out qigong (or anything medicinal for that matter) to anyone with any defined medical condition for treatment of said condition; meaning that if someone joins your qigong class w a medical diagnosis of some sort, it's fine for them to do the qigong, as long as you don't say "do this specific qigong, it will cure your condition";

Yes, I agree with your reply on time and results. When I said months and years I'm talking about seeing the accumulation of Qi and opening of Channels. Of course one can relieve stress immediately and since a lot of conditions are the result of stress then those conditions can improve.

agreed - there is a progression over time, but I just don't buy the old "practice for 10 years without expecting any results" schtick;

[woliveri]

meaning that if someone joins your qigong class w a medical diagnosis of some sort, it's fine for them to do the qigong, as long as you don't say "do this specific qigong, it will cure your condition";

Oh, I see what you're saying..... I Agree

[taai gihk yahn]

Oh, I see what you're saying..... I Agree

and, of course, it certainly doesn't mean that whatever you do in that class won't address their issue in someway, directly or indirectly and it's certainly possible that they may indeed have improvement in their medical condition as a result of the practice; and it doesn't preclude your doing specific qigong in the class that you think would benefit them for whatever reason, much as you might look at any of your students such as they are and decide to do certain moves / postures (since one assumes that they were cleared by a doc who ever would clear them for whatever sort of activity they are doing); in a way, by not specifically addressing the medical diagnosis (as long as they are in no danger or doing something contraindicated), it might give them some space to explore the practice without feeling the pressure if you will of "this has to work" (sort of what the OP had, in my personal opinion, going against him) - this is in a sense a "taoist" approach of meandering as opposed to going directly in a straight line to "solve" an issue...

[donjitsu2]

@ Mr. Serenity:

First off your main problem is you "jog 2 miles...several times a week". Have you even read a health and fitness magazine in the last 10 years? Stop doing stupid **** like that to your body to "get healthy". Jogging is for people who hate themselves.

You'd be MUCH better off tossing a kettlebell around several times a week. And if you absolutely have to run: do hill sprints 3 times a week instead.

BTW I find it difficult to believe that you workout as much as you say you do and still have high blood pressure. Something is fishy with your story.

Now, back to the topic at hand: Qigong.

You stated you only trained Qigong for a month. You aren't really in a position to judge the effectiveness of the method in such a short period of time.

I think your main problem is you are expecting a little too much from your Qigong practice. That isn't really your fault. The snake oil salesmen have been pushing Yoga, Tai Chi, and Qigong as though they are some miracle cure for quite some time and it has been a disservice to everyone.

Qigong is a part of a much larger healing system. It isn't the "end all, be all". You still have to watch what you eat, get plenty of exercise at higher intensities, and get plenty of rest. Now, Qigong can act as a hedge against a poor lifestyle but it can only do so much.

On a personal note: I use Qigong on a daily basis and have been for almost 10 years now. Like Gene, it keeps my allergies in check. It also helps me recover from workouts and I've even noticed an improvement in my performance during martial arts training and when lifting. It isn't my "magic bullet", but it does have it's benefits.

So, I can't say I agree with your assessment of Qigong.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner (donjitsu2)

[Mr Serenity]

@ Mr. Serenity:

First off your main problem is you "jog 2 miles...several times a week". Have you even read a health and fitness magazine in the last 10 years? Stop doing stupid **** like that to your body to "get healthy". Jogging is for people who hate themselves.

You'd be MUCH better off tossing a kettlebell around several times a week. And if you absolutely have to run: do hill sprints 3 times a week instead.

BTW I find it difficult to believe that you workout as much as you say you do and still have high blood pressure. Something is fishy with your story.

I don't still have high blood pressure. It is at a normal level now. I took the meds for about two months, and don't take them all the time now, and my blood pressure is normal now.

But working out in conjunction with the "specialized Qigong to lower my blood pressure" for one month straight did not lower it when I did that test. It only lowered when I began to add the medication. And yes I do work out 5x a week. And I was told by my doctor to do cardio 5x a week for 30 min, that is why I jog to the gym and back 2x a week and the rest on an elliptical crosstraining machine.

Now, back to the topic at hand: Qigong.

You stated you only trained Qigong for a month. You aren't really in a position to judge the effectiveness of the method in such a short period of time.

I think your main problem is you are expecting a little too much from your Qigong practice. That isn't really your fault. The snake oil salesmen have been pushing Yoga, Tai Chi, and Qigong as though they are some miracle cure for quite some time and it has been a disservice to everyone.

Qigong is a part of a much larger healing system. It isn't the "end all, be all". You still have to watch what you eat, get plenty of exercise at higher intensities, and get plenty of rest. Now, Qigong can act as a hedge against a poor lifestyle but it can only do so much.

On a personal note: I use Qigong on a daily basis and have been for almost 10 years now. Like Gene, it keeps my allergies in check. It also helps me recover from workouts and I've even noticed an improvement in my performance during martial arts training and when lifting. It isn't my "magic bullet", but it does have it's benefits.

So, I can't say I agree with your assessment of Qigong.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner (donjitsu2)

I have been training in Qigong for almost a year now off and on throughout the week. Different exercises, that don't even help with acne which I still struggle with. The point that I made was I spent 1 dedicated month using particular exercises that were supposed to lower blood pressure and it didn't work. If it truly was supposed to work like it was meant to, there should of been a difference. And there was no difference until I took an actual pill. The only thing Qigong has helped me with physically over the last year learning different techniques from it has only been to be more calm.

This has been my experience with it. I put it to a logical test and it didn't work for the things that my teacher said it would work for.
So whether you agree with me or not. I am sharing my experience that this Qigong I practiced for a year doesn't really improve my health. Other things improve it, such as western medicine. Maybe I need to learn other Qigong, but that's just how it goes for me.

[taai gihk yahn]

So maybe a better title for this thread would be "the specific qigong that I did that my teacher told me would lower my blood pressure didn't do that after one month" instead of generalizing that qigong is impractical for health...

Because then instead of a whole bunch of people posting about how qigon can work and u sounding like a broken record playing "it didn't work for me", u wud hav gotten a few people posting something like , "yeah, ok"

[woliveri]

So maybe a better title for this thread would be "the specific qigong that I did that my teacher told me would lower my blood pressure didn't do that after one month" instead of generalizing that qigong is impractical for health...

Agree here

[Scott R. Brown]

So maybe a better title for this thread would be "the specific qigong that I did that my teacher told me would lower my blood pressure didn't do that after one month" instead of generalizing that qigong is impractical for health...

Because then instead of a whole bunch of people posting about how qigon can work and u sounding like a broken record playing "it didn't work for me", u wud hav gotten a few people posting something like , "yeah, ok"

That would've been too easy!