Won Hun Fun kicks

[loki]

Someone has stated on another post something that has made me curious. I study 7 * mantis under the Chiu Chi Man lineage. While it is true that many of the basic to intermediate forms in our lineage do not have too many kicks (variety wise) except for front kicks we do have more advance kicks in the higher forms. They include outside crescents, tornado kicks , roundhouses, ground sweeps, etc. There is even a form that is all kicking.

Now, I have been informed that none of the WHF forms contain any other kicks except for the front kick. Are there any other WHF people out there who can confirm this and why is this?

Peace

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NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[BeiTangLang]

For the most part, he is correct to my memory. Most of them are either groin or front kicks, but there are spurratic others. Bak Yuen Tow To <forgive the spelling>, has a "scisor" kick, and two turning round-kicks. There are a a few forms that have inside crescents. There are of course several sweeps in the forms, a couple of them have concurrent sweeps. To my knowledge we have no all kicking form. But then, I am not high on the totem pole in mantis, so my memories are subject to great scrutiny & I will take no offence in being corrected by any of my family.
-BTL

[mantis boxer]

I have learned about 10 of the 7 star mantis forms and I have seen maybe 25. We have many shin kicks, front kicks and groin kicks. The only form that goes kicking crazy is ''four side directional attack." We have NO form that does all kicking. If you take out ""4 side directional attack" you will find not outside crescent kicks or tornado kicks. It's not in our curriculum. I have seen bong bo, steals the peach, spear hand, plum blossom hand, plum blossom fist, falling plum blossom, goose palm, essentials, white ape steals the peach , short form , long form, 4 side directional attack, 18 ancestors, big wheel fist, small wheel fist and a few others. I am confident in saying that the wong hon fun lineage does not have many northern shaolin like kicks.

[BeiTangLang]

Yup. If memory serves, the all kicking form is an excersize drill of Tam Tui (added to some systems during the joining of systems at Ching Mo Acadamy) & is definently not in WHF lineage as mantis boxer points out.

[Young Mantis]

I study PM from the WHF lineage and would agree with Mantis Boxer that most of our kicks fall under front, shin and groin. Yes, "Sei Lo Bun Da" is the most kick intensive form and is the only one I know of that has an outside crescent kick. Many of the forms do have inside crescent kicks such as "Bahk Yuen Tau Tow" and "Yau Ling". "Siew Gah Sik" teaches the forward and reverse sweeps. I disagree with MB in that there are tornado kicks. The drunken form, "Jui Law Hawn" has them as well as the partner form, "Tow Fah Sahn".

Loki, you mention that "Conitnuous Brocade Weaving" has an outside crescent kick. Are you referring the the form, "Leen Wahn Gum Tow"? I have completed that form but can not find an outside crescent kick in that form. Are we talking about the same form? If so, where is the kick in your version?


[This message has been edited by Young Mantis (edited 08-16-2000).]

[loki]

Hi Young Mantis. Yes, I am referring to Lin Wan Gam Tow. The outside crescent kick is found around the 3rd road in the form. We have a sequence which we call main combination. It is a left reverse punch in hill climbing stance, right side punch in horse and right backfist in h.c.s. again. This sequence is followed by Bak Yune Chan Hak or White Ape Invites The Guest ( double hand grab to the right side of body in a tiger riding stance. We step into a horse stance w/ the right leg and execute a right side punch (stealing the heart). Now we turn counterclockwise behind 180 degrees. As we turn the arms swing down and up clockwise until they are overhead to the right side. The right outside crescent kick is executed at the end of this whole turning sequence , where the leg meets the hands. Both hands hit (slap) the outside of the foot, kick goes CW and hands go CCW. The leg goes down and you begin another 180 degrees turn and execute an upward overhead jing jow w/ a straight right punch in a cross stance. After that is a sequence similar to that found towards the last part of Bung Bo.

Also, our version of this form ends with 3 consecutive tornado kicks.

The all kicking form I am referring to has nothing to do w/ the Tam Toy that was taught at Jing Mo and adopted by the Mantis and Eagle Claw schools. That is a basic form that is usually taught in the beginning if taught at all. The form I am talking of is called Plum Blossom Kicks and is an advanced form.

It is strange that the WHF sets would not have any of these kicks in the empty hand forms but they are included in the WHF weapons sets.

Peace

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NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[This message has been edited by loki (edited 08-16-2000).]

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Has anybody thought that there are more techniques to a style than just the ones that are found in forms?

I'm a strong believer in this mode of thinking, and I've noticed it in many different situations. After all, forms are there to help you, not to limit you. The forms may contain mostly shin kick and groin/snap kick, but this could be because they were the safest and most effective techniques, and probably the favorites of Master X.

I also think my master once told me about seeing Wong Hon Fun do some very beautiful acrobatic kicks (much more than just shin and snap kick).

[LawClansman]

Greetings,

For the record, Wong Hon Fun taught various type of kicks during class. The Suen Fong Toy (tornado kick) is found in the drunken set (Joy Lo Hon) the drunken saber set, Tow Fa San the two man set.

Wong Hon Fan did not teach his entire cirrculum to anyone. So there may easily be other types of kicks in some of his highest sets.

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Sifu Carl

[mantis boxer]

I dont' agree. Those drunken forms are silly and really have nothing to do with praying mantis. They are a later creation. WHF not teaching the kicks? It's not a characteristic to have tornado kicks in 7 star mantis. Plum blossom fist and fallling plum blossom are advanced sets. If tornado kicks were apart of the curriculum then they would have appeared in those sets as well as others. Look at northern shaolin > Their basic set #6 already has sweeps and kicks.

[loki]

Brendan Lai has gone on record to say that he never learned all of WHF's forms. WHF never learned all of Law Kwong Yuk's forms.

Peace

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NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[Yee Ho Society]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mantis boxer:
I have learned about 10 of the 7 star mantis forms and I have seen maybe 25. [/quote]
In knowing 1/4 of the style that WHF taught and only seeing approx. 1/2 of the total system, how can you be confidant of the system, it seems to me you are making a pretty arrogant statement with no knowledge to back it up.
And for disagreeing with Sifu Albright, again you are a novice in the art, and if it were me, I would have a tad more respect toward those who have more experience in a system.
Just a thought.

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Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

[RAYNYSC]

The bottom line here is that Wong Hun Fan never learned the whole Seven Star Pray Mantis System, under Law Kwong Yuk at jing mo... Maybe that's why nobody ever learned the whole Pray Mantis System under Wong Hun Fan...

But that doesn't mean that he never taught these various types of kicks during class as Sifu Albright has mentioned before he did. The problem here is that Won Hung Fan never tought his entire curriculum to anyone There may easily be other types of kicks in some of his higher sets who knows?...

PEACE [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]



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RAYNYSC

[This message has been edited by RAYNYSC (edited 08-18-2000).]

[Young Mantis]

Loki,

The debate regarding the difference in number of forms between the WHF and CCM lineages is old and really not that pertinent to this conversation. I don't quite understand why you are bringing it up in this thread.

You have also stated that you are in the CCM lineage. Where are you getting all your information regarding the WHF lineage curriculum? Your statement regarding the kicks being in weapon forms and not empty hand forms is puzzling to me. Do you know the WHF forms enough to make this statement?

I also find it very interesting that your version of "Lin Wan Gum Tow" sounds very different from mine. In fact, the section you described does not appear at all in mine and we certainly do not do three consecutive tornado kicks. That is not characteristic of NPM, at least not for the WHF lineage. I checked the form listing provided by WHF and it does not appear in there either. With so many of the forms the two lineages do share in common and are fairly consistent sequentially, I wonder why this form is so different. I am not questioning the validity of one over the other, they just might be different but it certainly is interesting. Perhaps Sifu Albright would like to comment on this subject.

Mantis Boxer,

Although you may not like the drunken forms, I think your comment about them being silly is a bit disrespectful since WHF did teach those forms. I do agree with you that high acrobatic kicks are not characteristic of NPM, hence they do not appear very often.

[This message has been edited by Young Mantis (edited 08-18-2000).]

[loki]

Young Mantis,

It was not my intention at all to stir up a debate over the WHF/CCM lineages. Everyone knows this has gone on long enough. The point I was attempting to make (very early in the morning, mind you) [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] was that maybe there are certain things which were not passed on to WHF who in turn did not pass on certain things to his students. I am in no way trying to take anything away from Wong Hon Fun as he did a lot to popularize the art of 7* mantis and his record of producing prominent, respectable and skillful Sifu speaks for itself.

As to where I get my information from , well what I posted earlier concerning Brendan Lai was from Fernando Dopazo's website, The Mantis Cave. If you have never been there you should check it out. It has the most extensive and thorough lineage chart for the 7* system and good biographies for the more prominent and easily accessible Sifu for each generation. Any other info I have comes from personally having seen their forms played by WHF lineage practitioners and from having a Sifu who is very knowledgeable on the subject and who in fact met Wong Hun Fun at his school.

As to the differences in the form , what can I say? That is the way our lineage does it. There are many forms which have little if any differences and then there are forms which have big differences. Then there are forms that we have but none of the Wong Hun Fun people ever heard of them or seen them. Again, what can I say? ( I can say something, but I would rather not).

But you are right, perhaps Sifu Albright ( my Sifu) would like to add to this.

Peace

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NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[Young Mantis]

Loki,

I agree that the differences in forms really just comes down to how each lineage does them differently. Just as you say, we have some that Chiu Chiu Man lineage practitioners don't have and vice versa and it's probably best to leave it at that. I'm sure we both have our opinions on the matter which should be kept private. >=)

Best of luck with your studies.
YM