Differences between Hung Sing & Buk Sing CLF

[hskwarrior]

I erased the other thread cause its main focus was trying to get extrajoseph to answer a question for me. So i decided to keep the last part of that thread going on right here. And i wanted to clear up some things.

Coming from me, both Hung Sing and Buk Sing Kwoons are fighting schools. true, buk sing developed their strategies as well as did the Hung Sing Kwoon. Since we have the exact same basic techniques, groupings or combo's as each other it kind of makes sense that we may have similar evolutionary idea's. My Sigung (Jew Leong R.I.P.) was friends with Lay Chow and reported to have "wicked CLF" according to Buk Sing Sifu Richard Leung.

While Buk Sing focuses on speed, restricted to side stance, and work the successive chop choy's primarily, the Hung Sing lineage focus on elusive but strong horse in which we start out in side stance but move rather easily through different fighting stances and strategies. It's true, at times Hung Sing fighters can be stagnant or IN PLACE rather than all over the place. We would just face you and go toe to toe with you. We DO prefer the power strikes over repetitive successive ones. But that is not to state that we don't work the successive ones as well.

As i pay closer attention to buk sing, i notice there are some different training strategies and at the same time very similar one or exactly the same. for example, the Kwa Chop Sow Choy. we do that as well. we develop that as well. we work that as well. Now in that video you see bag work especially with the lead hand chop choy...well...we do that one too, exept its on the banana bag we use the momentum of the bag too.

Now, the dashing chop choy we do in spurts of three...not like you see in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGHeO...eature=related
But I have always trained it in a stationary position and used it in a different fashion while fighting (meaning using lively footwork).

And the reason why i spoke up is because no one has seen Hung Sing fight...scracth that. Buk Sing under Lai Hung has seen my classmates demolish some fools in competition. they were shocked when he used the sow geuk with the arm come crashing down and flipped that guy head over heels...but yeah, there are NO video's (unitl recently) of Hung Sing people fighting, no existing footage known of.

Since the only hubs for Hung Sing up till now was Singapore, Hong Kong, and United States. but there is no video's of anyone fighting. so, i feel its unfair to say HUNG SING fights this way when no one outside of the FUT SAN HUNG SING lineage really knows.

still, Hung Sing and Buk Sing are family, except buk sing has that northern flavor in it too. haha.

open for more discussion.

[hskwarrior]

One difference between hung sing and buk sing, is that we have the same HOI JONG. Hung Sing's Hoi Jong is made up of crane and tiger. Buk Sing's Hoi Jong used to be the same until the took out the crane and went ALL tiger. everywhere you see a crane hand in our lineage you will see a tiger claw with theirs.

[hskwarrior]

IN Hung SIng or Buk Sing there are like 5 Chop Choy's we all share that. we throw the chop choy the same way.

[nospam]

Hi Frank. Always like to chat about Bak Sing...
About the Hoi Jong..we have both tiger and crane. I checked other Bak Sing vids on the Net and I see both..exactly how or very close to how we perform ours.

Someone mentioned tsap choi being similar to boxing lead hand jab...disagree. The post seems to have been deleted. A lead hand jab is thrown at distance and generally to keep one's opponent at distance. Our tsap choi is not played like that. I've seen some thrown like successive baby jabs but I see that as a waste of energy and using the wrong tool for the job. I'm not saying one needs to switch out technique if there is an easy target that remains open..by all means tsap choi the **** out of someone if it's there..but as one gains experience thru proper training and sparring, this should lead the practitioner to a path of maximising movement versus energy output...I'm just say'n.

We don't restrict ourselves to a sidestance but do incorporate it in certain strikes. If one uses their back hand..this cannot be played sideways. The chasing stance, if you will, could be either side or front-facing. We emphasis a certain fighting philosophy that most definitely favours a seemingly side stance look. But again..there is a philosophy on what occurs between points A-B. And I am not just talking about aggressive footwork. Although to me, this is one of the main differences in Hung & Bak Sing. We share root techniques but the application is different. Some folks say a gwa is a gwa or a punch is a punch..of course there are cross-over uses, but look at how many varying ways/styles there are for kicks!

I've started to see some Hung Sing practise videos that impress me in their fluidity and useage of CLF techniques. I think it is the Teacher and his/her influence that is one of the key differences in any style.

My 2 cents. Let's keep the convo open.

nospam.

[hskwarrior]

Hi Frank. Always like to chat about Bak Sing...
About the Hoi Jong..we have both tiger and crane. I checked other Bak Sing vids on the Net and I see both..exactly how or very close to how we perform ours.

Yeah i see that too. its my personal belief that there two types of buk sing..the older one and the newer one enhanced with the northern flavor.

We don't restrict ourselves to a sidestance but do incorporate it in certain strikes. If one uses their back hand..this cannot be played sideways. The chasing stance, if you will, could be either side or front-facing.

agreed. because our running (chasing) heart punches and Running uppercuts are facing head on. but we do use alot of side stance in our stuff too.

And I am not just talking about aggressive footwork. Although to me, this is one of the main differences in Hung & Bak Sing. We share root techniques but the application is different.

this is where i have to disagree because from the stuff on the net from buk sing in regards to application.....we share alot of that as well at least in my lineage we do. although applications will vary from school to school.

If you are not breaking up your stuff, exploring it, constantly searching within the system you are doing it an injustice. fighters, regardless will at one point find out that what they thought was exclusive to them is actually being thought of by other real fighters who know how to fight with their gung fu.

I've started to see some Hung Sing practise videos that impress me in their fluidity and useage of CLF techniques. I think it is the Teacher and his/her influence that is one of the key differences in any style.

true. in my lineage its always been that way. The new generation takes from the old and attempts to evolve it by exploring new ways or being open to something not previously apart of what we do.

Now, in the past i've mentioned that although in forms practice or certain drilling situations the Hung Sing method can be stagnant. IMHO, its done that we to build strength in our foundations. But, in application we are much more mobile. yet, my sifu has always embedded in our minds about the fluidity of our material. He always related to our CLF as Water or Waves crashing on the shore.

In regards to a lead hand chop choy being similar to a boxers jab...i agree and disagree. I agree with the idea because of the "quickest between A and B is a straight line". But, yes, the lead hand chop choy for a number of reasons, but in some aspects is still pretty similar.

Fighting strategies IMHO can overlap because of the fact that again IMHO nothing is exclusive to one system or style. When you have the same root techniques, there will come a point when two separate fighters of the same style to share similar fighting concepts, strategies, and applications. this is life.

Therefore, if you want to break down the Hung Sing method its a little difficult because each individual person has his or her own interpretation of how the system should be used. In our opinion, the usage of our gung fu is not like a cookie cutter that replicates the same cookie after cookie. Lau Bun was the kind of master that understood combat was individual endeavor. This is why he shaped his CLF to the student.

While breaking down the Hung Sing method under the Yuen Hai lineage, our method of usage is definitely fluid, but we also rely on a strong, sturdy horse. Additionally, we love power strikes. In most cases, it was the horse stance that our elders would look at and not your hands. On an alternative note, a strong foundation will lead to other areas of your arsenal to be just as strong because as we understand it power comes from the floor up. Without that connection to the floor, your strikes won't be as effective. This i've shown to my students who had no rooting in their stances. when we do pad work, their strikes wouldn't be as powerful if they weren't using a strong horse.

But, personally, i feel that the stance should be strong, built during the beginner stages of training. with that comes the development of your strikes in conjunction with your stances. once that foundation has been set its time to focus on confidence, mobility, aggression, focus, intent, etc etc.

Alot of our own knowledge comes from the fact that when you are street fighting, you are basically doing so in a relatively small area. We like to focus on whats in front of us and train accordingly. it doesn't require that much room to move around your target. We won't typically bounce around like Bruce Lee did, but we won't just stand there like a rooted tree either.

A Hung Sing fighter trains to take you out with only a few strikes. at least thats what we strive for. just get the job done efficiently and as fast as possible. as a fighter i'll hit you successively with strikes no matter what im using whether its a chop choy or upper cut, elbows, or even sow choy's. its all about the level of aggression (which is slightly different than a ring match).

Now, fighting strategies will vary from person to person. my strategies are not necessarily the same as my teacher. hopefully the newer generations are smart enough to pay attention to the previous approaches from the earlier generations. while some people in our lineage my move all over the place, some of us stand our ground and are prepared to take whatever you got to bring, then dish out some of our own damage.

We use ALL angles of attack and defense. What can be used as a block can also be used as a strike. while we do have lineage motion, we have circular footwork as well. not only do we have long range strikes, we also have very fast linear strikes too.

But in my case, i feel its important to dissect your system, lay it out in front of you and piece by piece clean it up, improve on it or modify it to make it work for you. so, when i teach my beginners, i break down all of the SEED hands, or basic strikes and the various ways to use each one be it offensively or defensively.

to me, today, i look at forms as something my students should learn after they understand what HUNG SING CLF is all about first. seems to me they understand what they are doing much much better that way.

I want to finish by saying, regardless of whatever kind of training we do, if its not against an unwilling target, its only HALF EFFECTIVE. too many martial artists in this world rely on the skills they developed in the studio in a controlled setting. in the studio they can be crisp, precise, and even fierce on someone holding a pad, or just standing there doing pre arranged techniques. But, the most important part of the game is how you deal with a resistant opponent whose intent is causing you as much harm as you intend to do to him.

unless we train accordingly, all of our gung fu goes out the window in two instances: when you get hit and how you react to that. And, when someone fights back just as hard. if you are not prepared for this you will come to an instant realization. YOU HAVE BEEN TRAINING ALL WRONG.

[Violent Designs]

What I meant to say (deleted post due to not saying everything clearly) was that a charp chui CAN become a "boxing jab" if you want it to.

But a jab is not a charp chui, a charp chui by essence is typically much more destructive and I would say more committed, and a charp chui you can use it in MANY different ways and variations.

So can a jab but... the usage of charp chui is encompassing that of the standard jab in boxing.

[nospam]

The best way for any of us to gauge our differences and similarities is face-to-face. There's a few Hung Sing folk in my town and maybe one day I'll be in a spot to do just that.

What we see on the Net is a small seed of one's style. I agree there are only a few ways to play gwa sau, but I thought this thread is suppose to be about CLF differences. So I guess it is a good thang when we disagree.

nospam.

[hskwarrior]

its ok to disagree as long as you're willing to listen first.

[nospam]

And of course the most glaring differences are in the amount of patterns used to teach the style. It boggles my mind to read there are...even more than 10 patterns people use in a style. I understand the martial was beaten by the art, and the longer a student stays the longer they pay, but if you have 10 sets plus..you are focusing your energy in the wrong direction I say (outside of running a business..then your energy is not wasted.

Like Frank said..training against an unwilling opponent is a must. So I'd say that is another difference between many Hung & Bak Sing kwoons. Take my kwoon for instance, when I was actively tournament competing and going to various karate, tae kwon do, and kick-boxing schools..we fought and fought hard: these were fight clubs and we had a blast! We would then shake hands, walk away and discuss what worked, what didn't and why. Then we trained stupid hard, beat our own heads in (with style) then dawned the bag gloves and went to another martial art school in the hood. This is a hugely missing aspect of many kwoons out there. As I see it..another big difference. And I think a difference that is systemic in many a style over-emphasizing in patterns~

nospam

[hskwarrior]

oh yeah! there is no need to have 500 forms. most of them have the exact same sections of other forms, repetitious groupings, and what not. this is why i de-emphasized forms and turned to teaching how to first block punch and kick. once they got that down, then we start showing them various combination strikes, drills and applications.

since my students were actually getting into street fights alot, i had to change the way i originally thought and taught. there are only so many ways to upper cut, sow choy, chop choy etc, etc. its how you train and what you do with it that matters.

[hskwarrior]

the one thing in CLF that i don't get is standing on one leg and executing a bunch of moves. i could never do that knowing someone will just push me off my balance.

[TenTigers]

well, speaking as an outsider, (although my previous Sifu taught CLF as well as Hung-Ga, and my Si-Hing is a BSCLF guy..) on comparing the two styles, especially in youtube, I did notice there was actually one glaring difference between BSCLF and HSCLF. Looking at the two side by side, examining all the fine details, subtle nuances, the thing that really stands out is....














wait for it......
















the HSCLF guys usually wear those sleevless tops more often than the BSCLF guys.


no, really. They do.

[hskwarrior]

LMAO....show me a link of those HUNG SING GUYS wearing sleeveless shirts.

[hskwarrior]

Nospam,

two things im curious about in regards to buk sing. one, why was the crane side of the Hoi Jong turned into all tiger? was there any reason behind it?

two, when you bow, you bow to the front, turn kwa choy fu jow right? then turn back to do the third bow. why the kwa choy fu jow? im just curious to why the changes.

[Violent Designs]

When people say that Buk Sing looks "raw" they may be referring to how it looks stripped down. Because this is undiluted, raw fighting techniques... they are not "changed" for the form, they are not "changed" in the drills... we drill how we fight, exactly *AS IS*

I think that is because inn Buk Sing, all of the "unnecessary" movements have been taken away, even in the form taught at my particular school, it does not even represent the three traditional forms of other Buk Sing schools, but the technique as EXACTLY how we use it in a fight.

There is no "extrapolation" of forms because none of the techniques in what we call the "Combat Form" is extrapolated.

The techniques created the form. Not the other way around.