The Ten Elements Of Choy Lay Fut

[CLFNole]

From the way it is filmed I can see what XJ is saying. The "cum" looks like a "pak sao" to me, whereas I thought cum as in "cum jeung" the palm should come downward a bit and be horizontal instead of vertical. Cum - cover

The "na" does look like a biu jee but I think that is because it is just shown without blocking an arm. If you showed it against someone I think he would have known it was "chuen la".

Good demo though.

[Shaolindynasty]

The "cum" looks like a "pak sao" to me, whereas I thought cum as in "cum jeung" the palm should come downward a bit and be horizontal instead of vertical. Cum - cover

We do it a few different ways. vertical and horizontal. Vertical we make contact then press down.

I think you guys would recongize these as the same if you saw application of them against an opponent. The purpose of this video was as a reference for my students. I just thought I'd share it here.

[nospam]

I can see a fundamental difference in playing the tsap choi. Always good to see other CLF in action though. Get sick and tired of watching pattern after pattern, so good on you and your familia for putting more out there.

nospam.

[extrajoseph]

Shaolindynasty will have a better explanation than I, but I can try to explain.

Kum Jeong is covering palm, see this application:
http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/i...s/10el_kum.jpg
It's a slapping palm deflection in its application, even though in the air it seems like a pushing strike. But even in the palm deflection, there's still a punishing quality to it, it's not the run of the mill "slap-block".

For Na, or Chuen La, it is piercing through-uprooting-deflecting, as seen in this application:
http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/i...ts/10el_na.jpg
It may appear as a Bil Jee strike, but it's more about the forearm rotation for the deflection. I've noticed a lot of different hand shapes for Chuen La in different lineages of CLF, but the application was all the same.

-123

I can see where the difference of opinions came from.

For me Kum (Cantonese for Chin or Qin 擒) means to seize or to trap, and na 拿 means to lock or to break. Whereas you guys interpreted Kum and Na as two different types of block and deflection, so there is no Na, only Kum to set up the trap.

So how do you guys practice the Chin Na 擒拿 techniques of CLF?

[yutyeesam]

I can see where the difference of opinions came from.

For me Kum (Cantonese for Chin or Qin 擒) means to seize or to trap, and na 拿 means to lock or to break. Whereas you guys interpreted Kum and Na as two different types of block and deflection, so there is no Na, only Kum to set up the trap.

So how do you guys practice the Chin Na 擒拿 techniques of CLF?

Perhaps CLFNole can explain better than I, but we typically practice the La element in conjunction to Chuen. So the Chuen La is a deflection (Chuen), immediately followed by La (grab). It's treated almost like one technique. Similar can be said of our Poon-La combo.

As far as practicing Kum La techniques, it is probably very different for each school. First, we learn the fundamental principles of body torque and leverage mechanics from static positions as individual locks. Then we learn the the principles of its application, ie, must stun the body first with Tek/Da in order to land any sort of Kum La, and even those are pretty low percentage.

As an interesting academic exercise in understanding flow, energy, and mechanical structure we practice and learn how to block and reverse the Kum La.

Then we find them in the forms' applications.

Honestly, though, I think Ju Jutsu has a more organized and systematic approach towards learning the science of joint manipulation and leverage. So my teachers have taken some of their pedagogy and applied it to the CLF curriculum.

Do you practice and teach it in more of the "poetic" (ie random) Chinese way, where it pops up here and there, or do you have a hierarchical curriculum that builds the foundation of the Kum La?

-123

[extrajoseph]

Hi 123,

Chuan La (Chuan Lao in Mandarin and written as 穿撈, meaning to penetrate and to fish or to pull out) is different to Kum Na (Qin Na in Mandarin and written as 擒拿), they are two different techniques. I guess you could also meant to Chuan Na 穿拿 (penetrate to block and then grab to lock) but in the video the Chinese characters are written as Kum Na but what the exercise intended was something similar to Chuan La or Chuan Na, hence the confusion.

As far as I know, CLF has a systematic way to study Qin Na (Kum Na in Cantonese) and it starts with the understanding how the human anatomy functions especially the limits of the rotation of our joints. The idea is by controlling the first gates one can control the whole of the body of an opponent.

To free oneself, if the first gate (eg the wrist) is being controlled, then use the second gate (eg the elbows) to free yourself and if the second gate is being controlled then use the third gate (eg the shoulder) to do the same and if the third gate is being controlled then use the body or go back to use the first gate to free yourself and so forth.

In order to do this one's whole body must be filled with Dantian Qi and always be upright ("centrally correct" or Zhong Zheng 中正 in Chinese, ie to follow the line of the gravitational forces at all times), that is the body is not broken up into parts to be Na by your opponent but functions as a unified whole and that is where the internal forms of CLF (eg. Lohan 18 Hands) come in handy.

The problem with CLF is many of the students of the past (and present) leaved their teachers too early to start up their own schools or even their own branches before learning the full curriculum properly and then found themselves later on having to take on techniques from other styles to make up for the short fall. You mentioned Ju Jutsu to replace "CLF Qinna Shenshou Fa" 蔡李佛擒拿身手法 (the CLF methods of Chin Na using the body and the hands) is a good example.

Of course we can always learn from other styles but one must learn what one has already fully before venturing out to learn from others. We have to ask ourself, how many students from one school or one branch are encouraged to learn from other CLF teachers from other schools or branches? None or very few, I am afraid, so we are all like frogs sitting in a well.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

ribbitt...ribbitt....ribbit......check out how i chop choy this fly with my tongue

[extrajoseph]

The sound of one fat frog at the bottom of his well:

ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk...ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk...ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....

[hskwarrior]

The sound of one fat frog at the bottom of his well:

ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....

The actions of a BITTER chan family DISINFORMATIONIST that is filled with more mental GARBAGE than real, effective, physical skill. There are two things i'm willing to bet EJ. 1) YOU NEVER had a fight in your life. 2) in your mind you really believe your own BS.

It sure is really simple for you to comment, mislead, interject, cover up, and redirect. Yet you have NO PROOF that you are worth a grain of sand. Pacifism is your best friend. you must be christian too cause the CLF people of YOUR lineage would never strike back. they would rather sit down over a cup of tea and work on the cultivation of your inner self and practice qigong forms.

are you upset that no one believes you anymore & that people are seeing thru your nonsense? IN the history of CLF time has proven CLF has had its fair share of INTELLECTUALS and fighters. where do you think YOU fit in EJ? i know!!!!!

OH! in regards to the highlighted areas, YOU don't have to tell me that. I KNOW FUT SAN IS THE BEST. In the history of CLF Fut San was the most famous branch of the CLF system.

[Olaf]

Nice video

[yutyeesam]

The problem with CLF is many of the students of the past (and present) leaved their teachers too early to start up their own schools or even their own branches before learning the full curriculum properly and then found themselves later on having to take on techniques from other styles to make up for the short fall. You mentioned Ju Jutsu to replace "CLF Qinna Shenshou Fa" 蔡李佛擒拿身手法 (the CLF methods of Chin Na using the body and the hands) is a good example.

Of course we can always learn from other styles but one must learn what one has already fully before venturing out to learn from others. We have to ask ourself, how many students from one school or one branch are encouraged to learn from other CLF teachers from other schools or branches? None or very few, I am afraid, so we are all like frogs sitting in a well.

XJ

Hi ExtraJoseph,
I understand what you're saying. It depends on what the practitioner is after - adherence to a style, or to cross train with specialists, to refine skill sets not commonly covered. The former is easier for most folks. So instead of taking long, expensive trips to China or Australia, you could learn essentially the same material right at home.

The beauty of learning from Ju Jutsu specialists, is that they are actively pressure testing their Kum La techniques, quite often with 100% resistance. So in the realm of combat, they probably have a better understanding, and have a whole series of simplified technical and sparring drills to prepare you to be a high level grappler.

Even if you trace CLF all the way back to its contemporary direct descendants, I'm willing to bet that their ability to apply Kum La as effectively as a high level Ju Jutsu teacher in America is not as strong.

And that is OK.

I totally understand the Chinese pride of having everything come from China, but I got over that when I realized western Boxers have amazing drills to learn from. Muay Thai coaches have brilliant drills to quickly improve certain attributes. Escrima has an unparalleled pedagogy on developing weapon skills against full resistance. JuJutsu has incredible ways to ease someone into mastery of locks and positioning. Western wrestling has a lot to teach going from the (no-gi) clinch to takedown. Fencing has a lot to offer to develop skill in timing. Heck, even Olympic Taekwondo has some good drills to help improve kicking speed.

I am not advocating being jack of all trades, master of none. I'm simply identifying which attributes you want to take to a higher level, and what the most efficient path to that is. To use an analogy, I don't go to a Latin language teacher to learn German, even though German is a Latin based language. I go to a German language teacher.

Understand that I'm not trying to take anything away from CLF, I'm just a big believer in cross training to maximize one's performance and attributes. Chan Heung certainly did!

-123

[CLFNole]

XJ:

I allows thought of cum la as a concept in this case grappling if you will. But are you saying that what most consider "cum" and "na/la" of the 10 seeds are the same thing? I was under the impression "cum" and "na/la" as in the seeds were more specific techniques whereas cum la/na is more concept oriented (meaning broader in scope if you will). Maybe this comes down to you thinking of the 10 seeds more as concepts and others more as techniques?

I agree with what you said about people learning and leaving.

Peace.

[yutyeesam]

I agree with what you said about people learning and leaving.

Peace.

And now more than ever, in the age of information being at your finger tips. Knowledge/info is easily gained, and disposed.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

I know how you feel about me and how Futsan is the best, there is no need to keep on ribbitting, it is very boring.


Hi CLFNole,

By the title of the video - the 10 "Jue" 訣 or the 10 rhyming formulae of CLF, I think the 10 seeds are meant to be conceptually orientated and I took it that way.

So Kum should have movements that covers across the body and Na should show some form of grabbing and locking, but I didn't see any.


Hi 123,

As I said earlier, I have no problem with cross training with other styles, but I can see we can cross train with each other within the same style as well, but do we do this? The answer is a clear "No".

Can you imagine a Futsan guy would take a one-hour train ride to Guangzhou or Kongmen to train with his CLF brothers? Or the other way around? Frank's behavior here showed it would never happen because everyone thinks they are the best and there is no need to learn from each other.

Sure we can get a lot of information easily in an electronic age, but gaining knowledge is another matter...


Cheers guys, thanks for your discussions.
XJ

[bawang]

i think while extrajoseph is a doushbag, hsk is also fat. so u guys are both right.

The "cum"

lol u said cum ur a perwert