judo vs. bjj

[Knifefighter]

Judo comes from Jujutsu. Kano turned Judo into a massive commercial product through exciting tournaments and heavy sparring (just like MMA is doing to TMA). Limiting it to a sporting aspect. Traditional Japanese JJ includes all of what you stated, including eye strikes, throat strikes, small joint manipulations (fingers, toes)...but these are unsporty and difficult or even impossible to spar at 100% in any dojo (ie. you can only pretend to eye strike someone). While you can spar and compete at 100% in Judo with rules.

Kano's basic thesis was that, since Jujutsu's "deadly techniques" could not be practiced at full force, they were ineffective. He used his philosophy of full out training with safer techniques to challenge the jujutsu guys and, basically, smashed them.

Pretty much the same principle used the modern full contact "sport" styles vs. traditional "deadly styles" challenge matches like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw

http://www.vidilife.com/video_play_550606

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LZVDVEKRrI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h50xd...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYQiP...eature=related

[Lokhopkuen]

Kung fu means skill acquired through hard work.

I didn't see one kung fu exponent.

[Kansuke]

Kung fu means skill acquired through hard work.

I didn't see one kung fu exponent.

Really? There's all kinds of hard work...

[Lokhopkuen]

I've taken up a secret style of ground fighting to deadly for the street.

[goju]

i thought bjj just largely preserved the older form of judo before it began to focus largely on throws ?

[Frost]

i thought bjj just largely preserved the older form of judo before it began to focus largely on throws ?

at the start yes but because it concentrated so much on the ground and on competition it has created new moves and positions that were never seen in judo, or if they were it has created variations of those moves never seen, things like 50/50 guard, upside down guard, darc choke, go go plata etc, just in the same way judo developed new grips and takedowns old school judo didnt have because of the heavy competition influnence these days (well it did until these grips and leg attackes were banned because the east europeans were cleaning up using them)

[sanjuro_ronin]

at the start yes but because it concentrated so much on the ground and on competition it has created new moves and positions that were never seen in judo, or if they were it has created variations of those moves never seen, things like 50/50 guard, upside down guard, darc choke, go go plata etc, just in the same way judo developed new grips and takedowns old school judo didnt have because of the heavy competition influnence these days (well it did until these grips and leg attackes were banned because the east europeans were cleaning up using them)

Ever read the Kawashiki method of Judo?
It's an old book, but it has submissions that many think were "invented" in BJJ.
That said, in terms of positional dominace and VARIETY of submisions OFF of basic subs, BJJ is/was far ahead of Kodokan Judo.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Always enjoyed the match between Helio and Kimura. Even though Kimura won and had almost mythical status, the fact of the huge size difference as well as the fact that Helio refused to tap after having his arm broken always made me respect his pure toughness. I remember reading once where Kimura said if the fight lasted more than three minutes, he would consider it a loss. Kind of arrogant I guess, but so is bringing a coffin to ring for Kimura like the Gracies did.

[MightyB]

(well it did until these grips and leg attackes were banned because the east europeans were cleaning up using them)

LOL - ain't that the truth!!! Our state association is p!ssed about that rule change. A lot of us are leaving for Sambo and BJJ because we don't like "new" Judo.

Personally, I find BJJ to be closer to what I think Judo was supposed to be.

The Kodokan has a history of trying to keep an advantage for their Japanese Judoka through nonsensical rule changes. Some people were writing that BJJ = Judo. In a way they were correct.

Originally there was more ground fighting allowed. This led to what some people call Kosen Judo. That's simply referring to a branch in Japan that specialized in Newaza because they were physically smaller than the Tokyo University guys who were throwers from the Kodokan. They looked at the rules and said, "heck, if we can't beat them in throwing, we'll beat them in Newaza". Smart right? And they did start winning.

Unfortunately - the Kodokan didn't like that so they changed the game instead of finding a legit way to win. Thus - a history of changing rules to suit their guys started.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pre-war Judo or "combat judo" as they used to call it, looked more like MMA then Judo.
Maeda was a prime exampel of this Judo so it makes sense that BJJ would look the way it does.
The Kosen Judo of today is a far cry from the Kosen (old school) judo of Kimura's time.
Judo, the way it was envisioned and was taught pre-olympic, was a balanced and complete MA -
Strikes were used from striking range, with elbows and knees being used quite a bit along with low kicks ( Tenjin shinyo ryi), when the clinch happened, that is when throws were used to take the person down, HARD ( Kito ryu), and them they were subbed via choke or break or immoblized for restraining purposes ( Tenjin shinyo ryu and Takenoguchi ryu).

[MightyB]

Here's a clip I put on youtube a long time ago of old school Judo. In it you see Mifune using techniques that you now see in BJJ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=korAyURbW6c

[Knifefighter]

Kung fu means skill acquired through hard work.

I didn't see one kung fu exponent.

Sure you did. It was from the MMA guys. They are the guys who have skill through hard work.

[MightyB]

Some old school here too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1pZk...eature=related

After re-watching these - I think BJJ is great for Judo.

I tell my Judo instructor that I don't see any difference between the arts (I do, I'm talking in a philosophical sense). What I mean is that they aren't in competition with each other and both should be practiced together.

I tell my BJJ instructor "watch out, 'cuz it won't be long before I figure out a way to beat you" and then he laughingly wipes the mat with my sorry arse.

[Dragonzbane76]

Here's a clip I put on youtube a long time ago of old school Judo. In it you see Mifune using techniques that you now see in BJJ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=korAyURbW6c

some nice stuff mightyb...

[Lokhopkuen]

Sure you did. It was from the MMA guys. They are the guys who have skill through hard work.

The MMA guys were better conditioned and more disciplined in their approach and that is indeed gung fu.
It's sad that TCMA has such a poor reputation in the fighting world due to the fact that many of the people who step up as "representative exponents" are nine times out of ten some poorly trained social deficient with no real skill sets to speak of (LARPERS) while men of true skill quietly observe the various goings on with detached amusement. I think what many practitioners from outside TCMA mistake a conservative cultural imperative for that stupid phrase "too deadly for the street"....
I've personally never had a problem with MMA but I've had a problem with MMA people talking s-hit about TCMA of which I am a dedicated exponent who is always willing to show and prove and yet i like you am well aware of the teachers legendary in their own mind....
Years back I spent some time meeting "Sifus" and "correcting bad gung fu" through "friendly challenge matches". At one point we (my rowdy "lets see if this s-hit really works classmates") were actively out spoke calling bull s-hit on people we felt were messing things up for the traditional exponents at large and even going as far to engaged in parking lot fights betting for money on the out come while competing at some of the bigger TCMA events, but that produced bitterness and gave some of us a reputation as a "trouble makers lacking subtlety" or representative examples of reasons not to train gwai lo/ hock gwai . If you are not part of a TCMA group you may not be aware of the culturally based pressures involved to remain in good standing amongst your peers. My classmates who are mostly conservative respectable Asian family men, gossiped and complained to my teacher that we might be tarnishing the reputation of our organization by "behaving as gangsters" yada yada..
Behind these incidents my teacher gave me a few stiff talking to's with the admonition to never interfere with a man's business as well as to "stop approaching everything the wrong way". That was a wake up call for me because somewhere in my head I never connected store front martial arts schools with the concept of being merchants. My teacher is a wise man of rare skill who has taught me many powerful lessons beyond martial art.

Now days the term Sifu is used by so many people with no concept of real martial essence. Titles like Master, Grand Master are assumed by cats that are simply slick business men with no warrior essence.

My point is those people in the videos you linked needed their behinds beaten just for being wanna-be posers.

Cheers to MMA practitioners for keeping martial art Martial.