What's the deal with Tang Soo Do?

[X_plosion]

Great Information on the history of Tang Soo Do!

Regarding the style's Chinese heritage, may I ask if anyone has information on this:

1. Is the Sip Sam Sui form of Tang Soo Do really a kung fu form as stated by the Moo Duk Kwan Organization?

2. Is the Tae Keuk Kwon Form the same as the Tai Chi long form?

3. Is the So Rim Jang Kwon form the exact same form as that practiced by the Northern Shaolin Chang Quan?

4. Are there any websites that contain more detailed movements on these forms? Are they purely Chinese or are they Koreanized versions?

Thank you.

[Taijimantis]

Those who continue to say that Tang Soo Do is modified Shotokan or other Japanese or Okinawan karate have obviously not gone farr enough.

The individual(Hwang Kee) Grandmaster who developed the Chil Sung (seven stars) form was a student of Yang Style tai Chi ChuanAnd studied it from the actual Yang Family grandmaster of the day (his name escapes me) and from what my Kwanjang has said, The Tae-Guk form of TSD is actually about 1/2 of the Yang Long Form.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I do not beleive it. Tang Soo Do does not demonstrate any understanding of the underlying principles of Tai Chi. This has to be a misrepresentation on the part of TSD. Get real, guys.

For that matter, if having half of a Tai Chi form is so cool - why not just study Tai Chi? While good Tai Chi teachers are as hard to find, they not as hard to find as Korean teachers who do not misrepresent thier history.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Taijimantis]

I guess I dont understand what there is to believe or not believe.

As a TSD and a TCMA practitioner, it is impossible NOT to see the connection. Have you seen the form? have you seen the application?
And how is it misrepresented?

Just because you dont like something does not mean it isnt so.

Could you perhaps explain your position a little more? I am unclear as to what your beef is.

[TaoBoxer]

I studied TSD for an admitedly short period of time (2 yrs) while living in upstate new york. While it was a nice group of people, it was simply a belt-factory and no one that I saw there (we had several 2nd and 3rd dan students, and a 4th dan ran the school) had the least little clue about ANY of the things that I now consider to be absolutely nescessary to effective practice of a martial art. Stances were never really tested for stability, There was no contact in sparring or in the 1-step sparring techniques.... so if there is no contact, you never know if you are generating power or have proper anatomical alignments. Form was never taught with application. Form practice was a warm-up for sparring or for marching back and forth doing kicks. Their joint-locking techniques were simply horrible and were only taught in terms of the 1-step techniques...they were never integrated into free-sparring (giving the impression that chin-na is only valid if grabbed).

And this stuff about the Hwa Rong? God I am tired of this "we descend from a cave 2000 years ago" crap. How many civilizations have risen and fallen in 2000 years?? These guys want you to believe that their martial art survived unbroken in a country that has been a doormat for just about all of asia??? If these guys were such amazing warriors, why has korea never held a position of military dominance over anyone? Or does the path of the Wha Wrong not include actually winning? these guys are no different from Chung Moo Do, Kuk Sul Wan, or Shao-lin Do. Fake a biography, buy a belt, write an article, open a few hundred schools. (sorry for the flame!!)

I really enjoyed TSD at the time, and it was a good step in my progression as an artist, but I could never take it seriously now. I hate to be a snob, but CMA really have it over on just about anything else I have been exposed to.

[Taijimantis]

The mighty Taiji, Defender of Tang Soo Do...

lol.

It seems to me as though you had a bad experience (though you admittedly enjoyed it at the time).
"Belt Factories" exist all over... even in CMA.
I will admit openly that I feel my Praying Mantis, (not to mention my Praying mantis instructor) ar far superior to my TSD instruction. But contrary to much of what I hear people say (inthis forum as well as other places) my TSD has not had any ill effect on my CMA training, in fact it has improved my kicks tremendously due to the precision and specialized (almost TKD-ish) techniques applied in TSD.
I could never say I would not take another system seriously. It all depends on who is teachig and performing the style.
Some of the points you made were valid, but also apply to any school or McDojo out there. Forms are just coreographed movemnts without the applications of the techniques contained within them. And while I personally dont think that sparring is as necissary as many people here (and elswhere) do, I will agree that the way many clubs and schools run and teach their sparring is very misinformative and in fact dangerous, as it can give a false sense of securtity.
Belts dont mean much to me, but to teach a child they are important. It serves as a means of goal setting and a sense of accomplishment. My Sifu does not teach children until they are at least 11 or 12, as the attention span and discipline to master his style is pretty intense. Admittedly, I would be totally lost had I not had TKD, American Karate, and TSD in my background. While I still have a lot to un-learn I feel the two compliment each other, and have given me a familiarity with hard and soft that I would not otherwise have.
TSD is by far easier to get a grip on than Praying mantis, but in the hands of a skilled practitoner, does it make it any less effective?

Shantih.
Namaste.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Pound for pound, you can take an average CMA student and he'll beat a great TSD or TKD student.

The tactics and strategies of TSD just aren't 'there' yet.

I do have a friend who is a TSD, Judo and Hakko Ryu JuJitsu black belt who is a tough old bird, but he's the guy who coined the phrase above.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Taijimantis]

That is a bold statemnt. Perhaps it is true?
I still feel how the individual trains has a lot to do with it.

[MonkeySlap Too]

How the individual trains is why the ball is in a legit CMA guys corner. TSD just doesn't train the same. Kicky punchy, not a lot of know how. (and thats a quote from a TSD champion who went on to study CMA. He loved his youth in TSD, but he was thr first to admit it screwed him up more than it helped him. I loved it when he fought only using TSD - I always won, which is something that wouldn't normally happen.)

In fact, I have repeatedly invited TKD and TSD guys to enter the ring at San Shou events, but no reply... However, the SeidoKan guys and Kyokushin guys sometiomes show, bless thier hearts.

Or in the words of Chang Tung Sheng after observing some TSD "That is rudimentary Shaolin, fit only for children." ooohhh, was that mean? I won't argue with Master Chang though...

Another factor is the natural attributes of an untrained but really tough fighter. Martial arts improve your odds of survival, they do not make you superman. I encourage everyone to study KMA because I find the KMA guys less dangerous than the wiley streetpunk who loves to fight.

[Taijimantis]

Harsh man.
While I dont agree... I dont have to! :D
I dont know what a "champion" in TSD means, but the training I have seen (1 step sparring, body conditioning etc.) Is comperable to much in CMA.

Sokay though.
I just refuse to be that blatantly down on any one system. I have found TSD to be very complimentary to my CMA, and a good foundation. Remember they always go back to their roots, and that is why later sets and techniqes in TSD are nearly 100% CMA.

Namaste.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Yeah, harsh. Sorry. I don't want to offend. I'd love to get a reccomendation of somebody who is a TSD only trained guy who could show me 'real' TSD. I'm just pretty sure I've seen it, and I think it's just fine, for other people.

[rogue]

Monkey, are you a sifu or a fight promoter? Have you entered their tourniments and fought under their rules first to show goodwill. With the disrespect you show for other arts I don't blame them for not showing.

[kenpoman]

There are no legitimate MA ties to the Hwarang. History taught in MA schools is quite different than what actually occurred. In fact, most styles that have made such a claim have corrected themselves (specifically Hwarang Do) by making it very clear that their style is in the "spirit" of the Hwarang warriors - not the actual art. Besides, Hwarang were young boys known for being athletic, artistic, poets, dancers, archers, etc., not a fighting brute squad. Now, ask me how I know this....

[Self-Thinking Follower]

In the 60's this was a hot debate and most agreed that Tangsoo was just the Korean pronunciation of Karate. This of course was the inside scoop. Publicly, korean sytle practitioners wanted to separate their art from Japanese and Okinawan styles. However, certain brave Korean Instructors like, S.Henry Cho, in writing admited that much of Taekwon-Do (previously known as TangSoo-Do and KongSoo-Do) came from Okinawa, by way of JAPAN. Do a little research on the writings of S.Henry Cho and early writings of General Choi Hong Hi and you see they both admit to the art developing from Karate, or as they pronounce the chinese characters "Dang soo Dao", Tang Dynasty Hand Way.

Some additional Information:

Hwang Kee was employed by the Japanese railroad in Manchuria. Hwang Kee was good friends with Gogen Yamaguchi of Japanese Goju-ryu karate, who was also stationed in Manchuria. The Yang family was nowhere near Manchuria. Hwang Kee collected many chinese books on Kung Fu. Some had been published by the Ching Wu. Tan tui exsist in Hwang Kee's Tangsoo-Do but not in that of others, why? ;)
Pyong Ahn is the korean reading of the chinese charaters known as Pinan in okinawa and Heian in Japan. The Pinan forms are known to have originated in OKINAWA!, chief architect was okinawan Tode instructor, Itosu. Hwang Kee's own book on TangSoo-Do admits this, and is in fact one of the works with proof of its development from Karate. Why do people refuse to give credit where credit is due?, Japanese Atrocities durring WW2! and blind following. Most other forms mentioned are also okinawan with exception to TaeGeuk Kwon and Sorim, TaiChi-Chuan and Shaolin respectively.
As for seven stars,?

In closing, if TangSoo-Do is natively Korean, which Korean Instructor taught Hwang Kee before he was sent to Manchuria by the Japanese?

[rogue]

Let's see in the Chon Ji pattern set of TKD there is Bassai, Empi and Tekki Shodan all of which are Japanese kata. And then Tekki Shodan bears an uncanny resembalence to Okinwan kata Naihanchi which supposedly comes from a Chinese form. The cultural cleansing of Korean martial arts is almost funny.