kung fu or bjj

[Knifefighter]

CMA should not be judged based on modern sporting ideas. It wasn't designed for sport, though some arts have chosen to evolve that way.

The sport vs. "combat" argument has been going on for 150 years. Kano developed judo to disprove the fallacy of jujutsu and people have been doing the same since then.

[Knifefighter]

Richard,
Well... you are slightly correct, and I am in no mood to argue. Brazilian Jiu (notice the spelling) Jitsu is based off of the old school Judo (not currently what you see) which was in fact old school Ju Jitsu.

No it wasn't. Judo was new school jujutsu developed specifically to prove the ineffectiveness of the non-sport model of jujutsu.

[Knifefighter]

Agreed, going to the ground deliberately with weapons certainly is not a bright idea. But then again, one should be prepared if such a situation occurs, no!?

If you lose your weapon and your opponent has one, your best bet is grappling and groundfighting.

[Dragonzbane76]

If you lose your weapon and your opponent has one, your best bet is grappling and groundfighting

hell some of the loonies on here probably believe the "chain" punch will get you outta a full mount or something.

[mooyingmantis]

Richard,
Well... you are slightly correct, and I am in no mood to argue. Brazilian Jiu (notice the spelling) Jitsu is based off of the old school Judo (not currently what you see) which was in fact old school Ju Jitsu.

Agreed, going to the ground deliberately with weapons certainly is not a bright idea. But then again, one should be prepared if such a situation occurs, no!?

The Chinese have never developed a comprehensive ground system because of cultural stigma, bias, and ignorance. I too have heard it preached that rolling on the ground is akin to a dog, something looked down upon in Chinese culture.

Funny thing is...now that money can be made off of BJJ, the Chinese are jumping all over it

JAB

Jake,
The spelling Jiu-jutsu does not separate it from Jujutsu. Jiujutsu is simply a French twist on the transliteration.
It is true that Kano Sensei practiced two jujutsu koryu ("ancient schools"). However, Kano changed much of what he learned to develop Judo. Judo was designed to be a sport oriented art that could be incorporated into the public school system. Which it later was.

I am not against learning ground fighting. Remember, I taught jujutsu for decades. Yet, I still believe it is a last choice scenario for self-defense. There is no point in purposely going to the ground if one can get the same job done standing.

I agree that if one is forced to the ground, they better have a ground strategy or at the least know how to disengage and quickly leave the ground. To have no ground training in a time when MMA is so wide spread is foolish. Since one may have to defend them-self against someone trained in this fashion.

TCMA has always been about change and perhaps this will lead to a new step in its maturity.

[Knifefighter]

Jake,
The spelling Jiu-jutsu does not separate it from Jujutsu. Jiujutsu is simply a French twist on the transliteration.
It is true that Kano Sensei practiced two jujutsu koryu ("ancient schools"). However, Kano changed much of what he learned to develop Judo. Judo was designed to be a sport oriented art that could be incorporated into the public school system. Which it later was.

Judo was developed specifically to show that the sport training model was superior to the "combat" training model. A series of challenge matches ensued in which the judo guys pretty much destroyed the jujutsu guys (pretty much the same way the BJJ, MMA and other sport guys have destroyed the "street" guys over the last 20 years).

Only later was judo incorporated into the school curriculum.

[Knifefighter]

I am not against learning ground fighting. Remember, I taught jujutsu for decades. Yet, I still believe it is a last choice scenario for self-defense. There is no point in purposely going to the ground if one can get the same job done standing..

Of course you want to go to the ground if you have expertise in that area.

[KwaiChangCaine]

So its the focus on randori and the ability to actually use your techs "live" that made judo and its successor arts (bjj) superior? Did the old school Jiujitsu not train in this same way?

[Michael Dasargo]

I believe tim cartmell put it best: practical vs. practice-able.

sport is an opportunity to test a body of techniques vs. a fully combative opponent, thus proving the validity and reliability of said techniques.

many practical techniques are pretty straightforward, but also generally only tested on duty or illegally....which is a small percentage of the population.

So if you are neither military/LE nor getting into street fights, chances are you aren't getting as many fully committed reps, thus reducing the reliability of ones performance under combative conditions.

M.

PS
What's to stop a Judoka from kickin' someone in the nuts in a street fight?
IMO, cognizance.

[mooyingmantis]

So its the focus on randori and the ability to actually use your techs "live" that made judo and its successor arts (bjj) superior? Did the old school Jiujitsu not train in this same way?

Why would you assume they are superior? Have you ever seen traditional jujutsu? Judo was the "safe" way to practice techniques taken from jujutsu. Again, it was designed for school children. Is flag football superior to NFL football??? That would be the same logic that you are using here.

Let me give an example of a common judo technique and its jujutsu counterpart:

In judo, tomoenage (circle throw) starts with tori and nage facing each other with gripped lapels:
1. Tori breaks uke's balance,
2. Tori places his foot on uke's lower abdomen,
3. Tori drops to his back and tosses uke ass-over-teakettle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOIbQ2cXRHU) over his head and to tori's rear.

In jujutsu yoroi-kumi-ushi (grappling in armor):
1. Tori presses down on uke's neck,
2. Tori advances and places uke's head under tori's armpit,
3. Tori wraps his arm around uke's neck and throat as a choke and neck lock,
4. Tori falls between uke's legs landing on his back,
5. Tori kicks uke in the groin (while maintaining the neck lock) to throw uke over tori's head and to tori's rear,
6. If uke's neck is not damaged in the fall (which is the point of the throw), tori rolls onto his knees and applies the neck lock pressure to suffocate uke.

How would you rather be thrown? The sport method, or the traditional method?

As for how the koryu or traditional jujutsu arts trained, it was on a ryu by ryu basis. Some used only forms, some fought within the school, others stormed other dojos.

[KwaiChangCaine]

Mooing mantis....the question marks they indicate questions. I'm just a student I know very little. Mr Desargo's response is appreciated and sounds as if for he and Tim Cartmel the answer to the questions is yes.

Was actually responding to knifefighter....should have made that clear for the benefit of the reactive of nature. BTW I practice mantis and respect it but I'm open. Why did you stop teaching Jiujitsu?

[mooyingmantis]

Mooing mantis....the question marks they indicate questions. I'm just a student I know very little. Mr Desargo's response is appreciated and sounds as if for he and Tim Cartmel the answer to the questions is yes.

Was actually responding to knifefighter....should have made that clear for the benefit of the reactive of nature. BTW I practice mantis and respect it but I'm open. Why did you stop teaching Jiujitsu?

LOL, so that's what question marks are for!!!
I didn't take your remarks in an offensive way. It is hard to judge one's tone when typing. So, I will try to be more clear in the future.

I have Knifefighter on ignore, so I didn't see his comments.

Glad to hear you are open. It is the best way to grow.

I still occasionally teach jujutsu to family and close friends. Though I am very limited by a back injury. In fact, I practice Mantis because it is less strenuous than other styles that I practiced for decades (jujutsu and monkey).

[KwaiChangCaine]

Your comparison judo /jitsu (to a novice at least) sounds, with all its detail well considered and I thank you. Never saw traditional Jiujitsu training that's why I was asking. Had heard the randori argument before. Don't think a lot of the judoka out there think of their art as being designed for school children. Rather a way to practice effective technique without losing training partners to injury or death. Was wondering how traditional Jiujitsu practitioners trained assuming they had this concern for their fellow students. Thanks again.

[mooyingmantis]

Your comparison judo /jitsu (to a novice at least) sounds, with all its detail well considered and I thank you. Never saw traditional Jiujitsu training that's why I was asking. Had heard the randori argument before. Don't think a lot of the judoka out there think of their art as being designed for school children. Rather a way to practice effective technique without losing training partners to injury or death. Was wondering how traditional Jiujitsu practitioners trained assuming they had this concern for their fellow students. Thanks again.

Judoka know the history. Judo can be brutal, no doubt about that and it can be useful in self-defense. Its just very different in intent than jujutsu. Judo was designed for sport, jujutsu for controlling or killing.

Actually the Japanese have little concern for their classmate's or student's safety. Read Angry White Pyjamas. It will be very illuminating read on the brutality of Japanese practice.

[Kansuke]

Actually the Japanese have little concern for their classmate's or student's safety.

That is a false generalization.