kung fu or bjj

[EarthDragon]

PS please understand that when I post on here I do try to post things that can always be backed up, not just words or rants, LOL although sometime I rant like everyone else.
this I just scanned out of my MA biz card binder, so you dont think I am just a TMCA guy, all things have thier place, I am usually in the middle and can see both sides of everything i think this is wise, hopefully all can do this and not be SO one sided.
Attachment 5842

[taai gihk yahn]

OK I will partialy agree with you here, however in my expereicene the TKD schools that turn out great tourney fighters are not tough perse and usually cant fight for ****e on the street. I would have to say if you follow rules for too long its hard to fight outside those rules based on engraining. this is the same with sport fighters If you do something to much and to long its hard to do it another way would you agree to this ?

yes, if we are talking about Olympic TKD, because the rule set is highly restrictive, much more so than MMA; because the MMA rule set allows for much greater variability and options for techniques, it limits a lot less than TKD does; same w/ point style tournaments, and to some extent even boxing, wresting and judo, although at least you are using more viable techniques at full speed and power than in TKD: meaning that boxing limits to punches, but these punches do not become ineffective if you allow the use of kicks and grappling; vice versa for wrestling and judo; w TKD, if u open up the rule set, a lot of what they do becomes very low percentage (all the spinning, jumping and axe kicks, for example), and also they develop the horrible habit of fighting w their hands down bec they don't have to protect themselves from punches

what makes NYS credentials any better than say H.K USA CA?

because the credentialing is, ostensibly, set up with based on an understanding of the needs of the local population, and the oversite is immediate - what can a HK org. do to limit the claims or operation of an individual in the US? what sanctions can they really impose? not much, really; whereas if as a NYS licensed practitioner, if u break the law, make illegal claims, are negligent w ur clients, then they have immediate recourse that can really impact you and your business; therefore, u r more likely to abide by the rules set for your profession

[mantid1]

Yes the military does use live rounds. For targeting and precision. When it comes to working strategy against another living breathing humans......they do not use live rounds. It would be silly.....but if we could convince our enemies to train this way....using live rounds against each other in training....well, it would make it much easier for us.

There are successful MMA schools around....but I dont think the bulk of thier money is made from the few guys they have competing and winning. It comes from the average guy that thinks he is into serious training. Face it.....just because you join an MMA school does not mean you will have the heart and courage to go the course. We can help a student with confidence but when it comes to courage I believe that has to be bred. The MMA instructor has to coddle, baby and reassure the average student the same way the TMA instructor has to. They have to pay the bills...plain and simple.

Training MMA is very intricate and time consuming.....more so than TMA. I guess that is why I hate to see a couple of guys slapping around like a couple of drunken *****es comparing themselves to the highly trained MMA fighters.

Just curious....how many of the warriors here that are experts on warfare and fighting have actually served in the military. Of those of you who have who has seen actual combat?

I know there are warriors on this site that have served as well as in combat.....and I thank them for thier service!

[EarthDragon]

TAAI

yes, if we are talking about Olympic TKD, because the rule set is highly restrictive, much more so than MMA; because the MMA rule set allows for much greater variability and options for techniques, it limits a lot less than TKD does

;
rules are still rules, my point is when you train differently then you will act in real life there is a difference and not a measure of skill.
MMA guys dont worry about getting kicked when thier kneeling, and they dont worry about thier groin or eyes or tops of their heads, so this is not REAL life, however i will agree it is more real life than any other fighting sport for sure. but it will never overcome TMA.

because the credentialing is, ostensibly, set up with based on an understanding of the needs of the local population, and the oversite is immediate - what can a HK org. do to limit the claims or operation of an individual in the US? what sanctions can they really impose? not much, really; whereas if as a NYS licensed practitioner, if u break the law, make illegal claims, are negligent w ur clients, then they have immediate recourse that can really impact you and your business; therefore, u r more likely to abide by the rules set for your profession

True to a point however that can govern much more than MA and i hate our governemtn so I like to be free whatever that men in this country but as an example I am licsenced to practice accupuncture all over the world, however because I have not paid NYS thier fees and taken thier tests they will not let me pracice, this I know however it doesnt mean I dont know accupunture or that i am not recognized in other countries just because the US doesnt recognize? NYS sux no matter what you do its all crooked politicians with ther hands in our pockets stealing our tax money for coruption so NYS is a good example so if they say it OK then its OK? B.S
I dont conform to goverment rules so PLEASE lets not use policitics, to make our points its a sore spot for me.... thanks

[EarthDragon]

Mantid1

Training MMA is very intricate and time consuming.....more so than TMA.

PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE take this back. LMAO this stament is the most ridiculous statement anyone has ever made in the short history arguement of MMA vs TMA.

MMA classes are fighting ONLY
.
TMCA is herbology antatomy, taiji, qi cultivation, meditation, the list goes on and on. some of these things take YEARS.............


fighting is only a small piece of TMA and the most basic at that!
anyone with a fist can fight, and technically that is really barbaric, there are many people in the world who train thier art to much higher levels..................

saying a staement like this makes for foolish conversation, I mantid I do enjoy your posts and its not a personal attack but come on brother, lets come back to logic and viable discussion.

[Phil Redmond]

Of course you want to go to the ground if you have expertise in that area.

Dale, there are some instances where it's not smart to go to the ground regardless of expertise.

[mantid1]

Nooooooooooo!!!!!I wont take that back

I am not talking about the qigong, medicine, tai chi, philosophy......the list goes on and on. for the record these are the reasons I love the arts.....make you a better fighter...nah...but they can make you a better, happier and healthier person.

Fighting.....I just need to keep my mouth shut or a baseball bat

My comparison is with the kung fu actual fighting and legitimate fighters.....we can call them mma guys if we want. Like I said before I hate to see to guys claim to be skilled fighters slapping around like drunken *****es. A good MMa fighter uses skilled stand up techiniques that can be boxing or mantis....ect. We would both have to agree to be good in this area you have to drill, fight train...A LOT. Then the good mma guys will add the nice throws form BJJ, judo or whatever that go above and beyond what some of the KF stand up grappling covers. Not sure how much ground fighting you have done....but the training, drilling have to be extensive to become good at this. It takes a lot of work and its not just raslin like a couple of kids....it takes skill. So, as far as fighting goes you will need to train at least 1/3 more because of the ground fighting...not considering the extra stand up grappling that can be done.

I am talking about trained MMA fighters compared to the Kung Fu fighter. The mma guy trains only for fighting. He doesnt care if he kicks a certain point on the kidney meridian at 5am in Oct on the tenth year of the dog that it can make his opponent home sick.

Dont get me wrong....I prefer traditional arts. I still think there is a sick perversion with wanting to watch another person sit on top of someone and punch them in the face.

I prefer traditional arts as a way of life.....fighting is the base but I have learned many more beneficial lessons from the arts than fighting.

[Knifefighter]

Dale, there are some instances where it's not smart to go to the ground regardless of expertise.

Of course there are. What is stupid is to think that you never want to go to the ground. Some situations it is better to stand. Some situations it is better to be on the ground. To think otherwise is the sign of someone who is completely clueless.

[Knifefighter]

. but it will never overcome TMA.

MMA overcame the TMA mindset years ago.

[Knifefighter]

I am buying an Octagon next week and Chuck Anzelone (the only instructor in NYS cerfied By Gracies themselves) is teaching MMA in my school so I am all for it NOT aginst it but some fo you guys are saying its the be all and end all of fighting........all Im saying is it has its place. [/B]

Analone is not a Gracie Certified black belt. He is under DeLaRiva. (Shouldn't the guy who is hiring him to teach at his school know this?)

Here's a short list of bjj instructors who ARE "certified by the Gracies" in New York
Renzo Grazie
Nick Serra
Matt Serra
Joe D'Arce
Alexandre “Soca”
John Danaher


There are also a variety of Machado certified black belts and several other world champion bjj teachers such as Vitor Shaolin who also teach in New York.

[Dragonzbane76]

fighting is only a small piece of TMA and the most basic at that!
anyone with a fist can fight, and technically that is really barbaric, there are many people in the world who train thier art to much higher levels..................

well we should probably take the "martial" out of TMA then and just call it Traditional arts.

Martial is about fighting and is the heart of it. If you wanna call it just a "basic" example of TMA then we should just call it something else. Barbaric or not it is what it is and fighting is the source.

[Frost]

frost,


My school/students only competed once becuse we were personally invited by a friend wo owns a TKD school. We dont do tourneys becuse they have gotten really commerical, they dont replicate real fighting, they are way too political. they give a flase sense of achivment. I know I used to fight ISKA full contact in the 80's and 90's and also I was a judge for few years.

MMA is all about fighting, if a school has a lot of students doing well in comps then its a good bet its a good school,

I will partially agree on this, however I know competition politics and the best fighters dont always win, we all know this....... MMA comps are slowly getting as corrutp as PBA on a smaller scale. it just happned here in NY the better fighter did not train at the school who sponsered the monety for the fight and lost. go figure


?

Perhaps you have not been around the circut as long as I have but sponsership money, who knows whos, stratch my back guys will always be around. Not all the good fighters are in competition. You shoudl know this, for a lot of guys its not about the trophey.
I know alot of forms people who frown on commercialized competitions and we hate Wushu, so this is NOT a good measure of excellence.

fellas, dont get my wrong I was invloved with the UFC from the beginning, my teacher was on the board and I personally helped bring it to MY city Buffalo NY and Niagara Falls NY so Joel my kung fu brother who I trained with could fight in it., and he did and won both his alternate bouts.
I also hosted the world Pancrase Champion Yoshiki Takahashi and worked with the president of the WORLD PANCRASE CREATE INC. Masami Osaki and they came to the US and trained at my school.
I am buying an Octagon next week and Chuck Anzelone (the only instructor in NYS cerfied By Gracies themselves) is teaching MMA in my school so I am all for it NOT aginst it but some fo you guys are saying its the be all and end all of fighting........all Im saying is it has its place.

sorry but none of this makes any sense, if you want to learn how to fight at an MMA school its easy to find a good school, since MMA is competition based you go look at the local comps and see who on average has students always placing in the top 3 of comps or whose winning record is above average. Claiming things like we dont compete because of politics or the good fighters dont always win is just excuse making on average things even out.

Heres an example if i wanted to learn MMA today and i looked at 2 schools, one didnt compete and only 1 guy from the school had ever faught in a full contact event, at the other school 7 guys had competed last month all 7 winning their fights and has another 6 guys competing this month which school should i pick if i wanted to learn good MMA and compete myself?

hell if i only wanted to learn for fun and self defence i'd still pick the school that competed and did well because at least their i actually know what is being taught works

[goju]

Its gonna be niece once the older generation of martial artists are gone so we dont have all these people clinging on to these delusions

[EarthDragon]

mantid,
So your staement was specific to ONLY the combat part of MA? then , OK no need for a take back LOL perhaps I misunderstood what you meant.

dragon

Martial is about fighting and is the heart of it. If you wanna call it just a "basic" example of TMA then we should just call it something else. Barbaric or not it is what it is and fighting is the source.

But it is only once facet of a multiple faceted art none the less...

frost, it may not make ssnse to you poesonally but you cant speak for anyone elses opinion, its OK to agree to disagree no worries, different thoughts and perpective is what makes the world interesting.

goju,
for centuries this debate has gone on and willl continue to go on. If you think differently then you are the one who is delusional.

[Phil Redmond]

Of course there are. What is stupid is to think that you never want to go to the ground. Some situations it is better to stand. Some situations it is better to be on the ground. To think otherwise is the sign of someone who is completely clueless.

Exactly... I was just pointing out your statement that you "want" to go to the ground if you have the expertise. That's all.