Why does Gung Fu train two handed postures?.

[diego]

Like what's the history of double tiger claws...Bak Mei goes off on the bridge and hit two handed postures and they generally diss big power styles as useless for old age...lol what's the Hung Ga legend on the making of the 2 claws in bow and arrow pose and how many fists/hands have you seen using the concept and what styles have you seen them in?.

[Violent Designs]

To be honest I think a lot of these "postures" are actually more like your fighting stance.

Where your hands are. There is a quote from my style saying your resting hand should be at your breast ready to strike out after your striking hand retreats.

I think forms are almost always exaggerated so I would imagine the actual usage of say, the double fu jow is simply one hand guard, one hand strike, continue with the action.

[Laukarbo]

one hand controls/holds ,one strikes

[diego]

wiki says humans have arrows with blood on them dating like 64,000 years so I started thinking when did they start punching straight like an arrow...most kids and form players when they fight swing like chimps...a basic tenet of GF is shoot your fist like an arrow it's the key to the bak mei punch as soon as your other hands tiger claw starts to grip the other hand shoots out asap Arnold and all the meathead bodybuilders do two arm poses all the time...when did shaolin monks get a hard on for shooting fireballs with two claws?. I'm pretty much just trying to understand general shaolin fitness theory...

[TenTigers]

several reasons-
lin siu die da attack and defense are one movement.
two attacks simultaneously
cum la sao-joint locking
coverage

[PalmStriker]

In my own practice my strikes are almost always double palm or double hammer fists. Variation would be low side foot kick to ankle 1/2 second behind hammer fist strike to side of jaw. Only use one arm propelled strike or single kick deceptively after initial encounter when opponent is not expecting it, if at all. One leg blocking stance and Mantis-like forearm blocking incoming offense.

[Eric Olson]

The lam sai wing photo is "tiger descends mountain", yes? The lower hand cross blocks and presses the arm against the body. The upper hand is a palm strike to the chin/face (remember "soft hits hard"?)

The karate posture looks like a break hold similar to the one I learned in the Lau Ga form.

The Fu-Pow form from CLF (one of my favorites in case you hadn't guessed) has a double Cheung Ahn Cheui which is a double strike to the sinuses.

Several Southern styles have the double spear hand to the throat.

You see it alot but the application can vary greatly.

EO

[David Jamieson]

There are several applications to the top one, not the least of which being a locked arm/press back while striking the throat (cradle blow)

The second one is popular in chin na and is used to open the centre of someone who is grabbed you.

anyway...

[YouKnowWho]

This is similiar to SC/Judo left hand sleeve hold and right hand upper lapel hold.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Astronomy also has a role with certain postures.

The Lam Sai Wing posture appears to have been inspired by the Big Dipper (leg position) and Little Dipper (arm positions), often referred to as the seven stars. It is beautiful to behold it in that light.

mickey

[hasayfu]

Diego, this is a good question and one of the distinguishing concepts of TCMA.

Many have given some specific examples. I like to approach this conceptually. At a high level, almost all movements are “two handed.” This is part of having the six harmonies. Both hands (and legs and top/ bottom) work together to make a complete structure.

Hung Gar, specifically, likes to have the other hand do more than just structure. The picture you posted is interesting because the name is Hungry Tiger Captures the Lamb and implies what others have said. Control while attacking so more of a one/two then pure two handed strike.

There are specific two handed strikes though. The move immediately before the pictured one is Butterflies Spread while Flying. The key there is to spread from the butterfly block to open up the defense and lead into capturing the lamb. This move looks like the Chi Ball picture you have but expressed differently.

There are many other examples but that should give you a good flavor.

[diego]

Diego, this is a good question and one of the distinguishing concepts of TCMA.

Many have given some specific examples. I like to approach this conceptually. At a high level, almost all movements are “two handed.” This is part of having the six harmonies. Both hands (and legs and top/ bottom) work together to make a complete structure.

Hung Gar, specifically, likes to have the other hand do more than just structure. The picture you posted is interesting because the name is Hungry Tiger Captures the Lamb and implies what others have said. Control while attacking so more of a one/two then pure two handed strike.

There are specific two handed strikes though. The move immediately before the pictured one is Butterflies Spread while Flying. The key there is to spread from the butterfly block to open up the defense and lead into capturing the lamb. This move looks like the Chi Ball picture you have but expressed differently.

There are many other examples but that should give you a good flavor.

in the west kenpo guys have taken the double tiger claw press with the chi ball and turned it into this fancy ....fireball strike lol that's what it looked like when I first saw it back in the day, after studying bak mei basics I see quite a bit of martial theory behind that technique how you can really stretch your stance out like Hung Ga or stand more upright like Bak Mei...I'm guessing two hand strikes were adapted from the strong feeling of holding a stick and shield I'm just trying to figure out did shaolin get these martial ideas from weapons or was there always fancy power dances...is the tiger two claw pose a classical strong man thin...if so what other types of postures did they use and what styles adapted the techniques...everything from streetfighter to choy li fut has the push claws I have them from Kajukenbo but we do dragons head on top with the two fingers and then tiger law to groin...bak mei takes the two handed frame to a whole other level. I wonder who developed the original idea like they say yueh fei invented eagle claw, lol bak mei goes off on that too.

[Violent Designs]

One example from CLF (Buk Sing).

Is Tau Lau Charp Chui....

chuen sao/poon sao, with yum/yeurn charp chuis.

Also "double-handed" postures, of course not for grabbing and seizing (well you *can* with the chuen sao but it's pretty ****ing difficult in a real fight).

In an actual fight? The "secondary hand" such as chuen sao may not even be used to intercept/block/parry but may simply be there as a fake (ying sao), distraction, or obfuscation.

Furthermore a lot of the styles that use "double-hand" strike/grab/whatever posture have the theory of using advancing footwork to gain POSITIONAL DOMINANCE/COMBAT LINE CONTROL, without having to retract the secondary hand back and using invasive methods to move in, in, in and attack with very high rapidity and a lot of momentum.

That's how we do it anyways, but I believe Bak Mei's mentality is pretty similar, since they are also such an aggressive (and beautiful) style.

[boh]

Dbl handed postures
--------------------
Do you mean 'postures' or 'strokes'? Perhaps this is a bit ambiguous and maybe we can try to define it a bit better. 'Postures' tends to imply a 'pose', perhaps a part of a form, something that you practice in a sedentary manner - like the postures practiced in Xing Yi, where you hold a posture for a certain amount of time. A 'stroke' implies something more dynamic, which could be part of a form, but practiced dynamically, with movement.

I practice Ngor Chor, (Five Ancestors) and our art do have double-handed strokes, a bit more so then others I think. In fact our 1st form, 'San Chan' has a fair bit of these. For us, these have multiple purposes. Firstly, for us, the forms play an important role in developing skills and power, and by repeated concentrated practicing the form, seek to achieve this goal. In this sense the dbl-handed strokes serve as an exercise to deveop skill and power. In a way, the 'posture' itself serves a purpose to direct Qi-flow during its practice, and in that respect the accuracy or precision of the movement is important. Normally its assumed that this form of qi exercises is done statically, by holding a posture for a certain period of time, but for us its practiced dynamically, either as a form or sometimes as a 2-man drill.

For us, what is in the form is also meant to be applied in combat. However, when applied, the structure of the double-handed strokes become less formal, but still retain its 'essence'. This could mean for example, instead of both arms being held out at equal length or height, one could be shorter (blocking for example) and the other is further out (striking), or one striking higher, the other lower.

Also, even though only one arm may be contacting the opponent in a strike/block, 'throwing' out both arms allows us to generate more focus and power. However we do also apply double strikes for practical purposes, usually when we have 'opened up' the opponents defense.

[Yum Cha]

Postures are only the tip of the iceberg, the dynamic application that comes from the posture is what you need to remember.

Pak Mei two handed work is along the principle that one hand pins or traps, and the other hand strikes, then they switch jobs and there is another strike.

We also have dual strikes, with both hands striking, or both hands grabbing, and combinations of the two.

Why? I think two strikes are harder to block than one, and since were a pretty grabby style, grabbing with both hands works pretty well. Its not easy stuff to make work, but.