why is wing chun kuen wing chun kuen?

[Hendrik]

Ok Hendrik, I will go baisi I have trained under quite a few legitimate old timer WCner, and they never mentioned anything even remotely close to Emei's snake continuous slide power generation lol,


perhaps they do it and is something that's developed naturally through the coarse of WCK training, but it was never spoken of specificly. And that was the reason i was asking, because you are the only person that I ever heard use this term.

Thanks for the chat

You certainly have not read Jim Roselando's article on Emei and WCK conncetion.,,,

One doesnt have to know how to design a Car in order to drive one. So, if you train with legitimate old timer WCner as I list above, you will get their version of WCK with or without the Emei snake....name mention. and even them doesnt have to know where those signature is come from.

However, if one shows the art to TCMA pro expert in China, they will recognized the signature. The snap of White Crane and the snake slide worm move of Emei is well known for those people today.

[shawchemical]

Terence,

I know you are serious and
Let's get serious. this is serious stuffs. the old one is fill with all kind of distorted mind posts and got nothing or little to do with the subject.


There are lots needs to look at and these are serious stuffs.

Hunt1 post an interesting post yesterday. the issue here is if one dont know what is WCK how can one know what one learn which is so called WCK is WCK instead of some mix up of Southern TCMA? That happen alots.


And also, how can one know what is one's strenght and weakness while facing an opponent without knowing Why WCK is WCK?

One cant just claim one practice wCK and then using the karate strategy and power generation punch or Hung gar power generation to do SLT.


There are so many things can be discussed and shared and get educate on this why is WCK WCK issue.


First, the power generation,
By evidence,
In general, if we look at the power generation of say, Hung Gar, White Crane of fujian, and CLF. We can identify, Hung Gar is using the "lifting dead weight " type of power generation, White Crane of Fujian is famous for its snapping shock power generation, CLF is famous for its angular momentum swing.

As for WCK, WCK inherit White Crane of Fujian's Snap or "inch power from join force" and Emei 12 Zhuang's "snake slide worm moves" also the " squat lifting" type of power generation. These fusion make it suitable for close body action, one can see if one has this type of power or not by observing one' action while doing the Woodern dummy, WCK suppose to stay close, stick, and snap.... however, not every one or every lineage has this characteristic, IE if one using the General Southern TCMA's "lifting dead weight" type of power generation, one will not do the same thing but got to stay far from the Woodern dummy because the power generation is different. So does in application and real life action. different power generation means a totally different thing.


Then, there is strategy of application, then there is body mind focus conditioning.....etc all of these are key to know what is what and why is it.
It is all about technical and details. look at it and ask what is it. and see if it converge with the history tracks and records.... Things are much clear then some think.

MAte, I think you need to lay of the acid for a little while.

[Firehawk4]

Is there away to see if the Emie Worm Slide is still in the Yunan and Omei Mountain areas is it in other Emie Kung Fu styles ?Is there any Emie Snake styles that could have it Helen Liang does a Emie Snake style I wonder what kind of concepts and principles she has . I know there is that GrandMaster of That Emie Chi Gung Worm Slide , but would not it be in other Emie Kung Fu Systems ? The Fujian White Crane seems to be one of the parent arts of Wing Chun The Fan Chi Niang and Yim Wing Chun Stories are to similar for them not to be talking about the same people so how and when did the Fujian White Crane and this Emie Snake System get mixed togethor or a Snake System ?

[Hendrik]

Is there away to see if the Emie Worm Slide is still in the Yunan and Omei Mountain areas is it in other Emie Kung Fu styles ?Is there any Emie Snake styles that could have it Helen Liang does a Emie Snake style I wonder what kind of concepts and principles she has . I know there is that GrandMaster of That Emie Chi Gung Worm Slide , but would not it be in other Emie Kung Fu Systems ? The Fujian White Crane seems to be one of the parent arts of Wing Chun The Fan Chi Niang and Yim Wing Chun Stories are to similar for them not to be talking about the same people so how and when did the Fujian White Crane and this Emie Snake System get mixed togethor or a Snake System ?

Try this article. it might help.

http://www.w1ng.com/mystery-of-the-s...ei-connection/




look at the
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

Started 4.10 that is the Siu letter set of Emei 12 Zhuang which is believed to be the influence of the naming of SLT or Siu Lien Tau.


the way how Russell handle the arm, hand, and finger is the Snake slide worm move way.
Look at the technics and compare them with the SLT, CK, BJ.... technics.

Emei 12 zhuang is also famous for its very adaptive compact technics, meaning a slight small adaptive changes move makes a different technics.

small means compact and details. meaning a seems to be continuous technics might have a few technics hidden within it. So it is very adaptive to response to changes.


It is much compact then White Crane and other art. and in order to have this compactness a different dynamic structure is used. Thus, the snake slide worm moves way is needed. and also due to this "small" capability, it means Jin or power can be generated in short distance IE Inch power or Short power as WCK trade mark Tui Keng.

One certainly can compare the above clip with the below Iron Wire clip and see the different effect interm of body handling, power type, and compactness due to different power generation or dynamic structure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqkZ_PQi6NM

Russell's set was verified by the same Grandmaster of Emei as in Jim's article above.


And if you compare with the clip below from the old old timer WCner of different WCK family look for yourself what happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cqRp-YtuM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMT...eature=related

[Dave McKinnon]

Hendrick

What you posted was SICK! And by that you really, for the first time, posted something that was clear and concise and made sense.

I am sorry others aren't getting it but what the hell.

What I think you are saying is WCK is the unique (to WCK) way of applying
Spit, Swallow, Sink, Float,
with Chi, Mo to Join, Borrow, Eat up, Guide and Expel force.

Crane seems to be press you away to suddenly jerk you back in or suck you in suddenly to explode into you. Snake seems to be drawing or loading and eating space and smothering to use structure destroying inch power.

I would love to hear more and if I am on the right track

Dave

[theo]

Terence,

I know you are serious and
Let's get serious. this is serious stuffs. the old one is fill with all kind of distorted mind posts and got nothing or little to do with the subject.


There are lots needs to look at and these are serious stuffs.

Hunt1 post an interesting post yesterday. the issue here is if one dont know what is WCK how can one know what one learn which is so called WCK is WCK instead of some mix up of Southern TCMA? That happen alots.


And also, how can one know what is one's strenght and weakness while facing an opponent without knowing Why WCK is WCK?

One cant just claim one practice wCK and then using the karate strategy and power generation punch or Hung gar power generation to do SLT.


There are so many things can be discussed and shared and get educate on this why is WCK WCK issue.


First, the power generation,
By evidence,
In general, if we look at the power generation of say, Hung Gar, White Crane of fujian, and CLF. We can identify, Hung Gar is using the "lifting dead weight " type of power generation, White Crane of Fujian is famous for its snapping shock power generation, CLF is famous for its angular momentum swing.

As for WCK, WCK inherit White Crane of Fujian's Snap or "inch power from join force" and Emei 12 Zhuang's "snake slide worm moves" also the " squat lifting" type of power generation. These fusion make it suitable for close body action, one can see if one has this type of power or not by observing one' action while doing the Woodern dummy, WCK suppose to stay close, stick, and snap.... however, not every one or every lineage has this characteristic, IE if one using the General Southern TCMA's "lifting dead weight" type of power generation, one will not do the same thing but got to stay far from the Woodern dummy because the power generation is different. So does in application and real life action. different power generation means a totally different thing.


Then, there is strategy of application, then there is body mind focus conditioning.....etc all of these are key to know what is what and why is it.
It is all about technical and details. look at it and ask what is it. and see if it converge with the history tracks and records.... Things are much clear then some think.

I'm not one of the lurking high hands nor an expert on some of the styles shown in those clips. However, I do think this is an important question. So perhaps we can look at it by first thinking about what are the "components" of an art. We have the training method or emphasis, which in turn affects power generation/types, which in turn affects the application. Hendrik has addressed a bit of the power generation here. And the signatures are what differentiate WCK from the other styles shown above. For example, you don't see the Snake in White Crane, but both are apparent in WCK. I would venture to say that the training then, which must have an effect on the power generation, must also be different or distinctive. WCK training starts with SLT. I'm not sure of the method of the other styles, but WCK's SLT must also be different to support the different power generation.

[Hendrik]

What I think you are saying is WCK is the unique (to WCK) way of applying
Spit, Swallow, Sink, Float,
with Chi, Mo to Join, Borrow, Eat up, Guide and Expel force.

Crane seems to be press you away to suddenly jerk you back in or suck you in suddenly to explode into you. Snake seems to be drawing or loading and eating space and smothering to use structure destroying inch power.

I would love to hear more and if I am on the right track

Dave

Dave,

Yup. you are on the right track.

Yes, WCK is based on the basic such as spit, swallow, sink, float..... center line....ect however it has its uniqueness and that uniqueness make is WCK.

It doesnt need to formulate things as I am because there are many ways to look at things. But WCK has to have uniqueness. and that uniqueness is the strenght. Also every WCK will have their own uniqueness, that is the reason they are a different lineage.



In the ancient china way, every art has a Tee ("body" of the art, structure, power generation...ect) and Yoong ( Application/function of the art, strategy of application, function..).

Both of them support each other. Here we are investigation the DNA or Signature of Tee, and certainly there is also DNA or Signature of the Yoong which we didnt look into it yet ( Ei. Sure WCK attack center line, but how? what is the unique way compare with the White Crane of Fujian mother art?)

You got to thank your sifu Robert on present you a comprehensive and balance art with its own uniqueness.

[Hendrik]

Yup, there is a reason for everything.


The unique power generation is called for to support the unique application strategy.

That Tee or ""body" of the art and Yoong the application of the art needs to be present and echo each other. That is the Ancient Chinese way of designing/ creating an art.

Also, the Ancient Chinese is using System Thinking type of thinking model which shows the inter relationship between each components of the system and also the dynamics of the system. it is not the western analytical thinking type of thinking patent. And one needs to use system thinking to describe the Ancient Chinese art to unlock what it is.

lots of people make the mistake of appliying the modern Western Analytical only thinking model to describe WCK. Thus, that will cause incompleteness and un able to get deep into the art. IE. to only focus on a single elements, such as Function.
For the Ancient Chinese, Function/ application without the Body of the art doesnt exist. One must has the Body to support the application and interm the application is to show the usefulness of the Body.

We are invesigating to understand what an Ancient Chinese Art is using the Ancient Chinese thinking model. We are not intepreting the art the way as we like to because that is meaningless but all kind of individual ego driven.

Why is power generation is important? because it shows one what is capability of the boundary or the limitation of the art beside describe what body of the art is. That is to identify the art.


One doesnt have to see the art the way I present, however, the Tee and Yoong must be clearly describe within their view.


BTW, if one doesnt know the uniqueness of the art, then the training such as doing SLT is a waste.

See, SLT cannot and must not be perform like a Taiji or like a karate or Hung Gar or southern TCMA set. if one do it that way it is not going to yeild result needed to support one's real life application.

I'm not one of the lurking high hands nor an expert on some of the styles shown in those clips. However, I do think this is an important question. So perhaps we can look at it by first thinking about what are the "components" of an art. We have the training method or emphasis, which in turn affects power generation/types, which in turn affects the application.

[theo]

Try this article. it might help.

http://www.w1ng.com/mystery-of-the-s...ei-connection/




look at the
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

Started 4.10 that is the Siu letter set of Emei 12 Zhuang which is believed to be the influence of the naming of SLT or Siu Lien Tau.


the way how Russell handle the arm, hand, and finger is the Snake slide worm move way.
Look at the technics and compare them with the SLT, CK, BJ.... technics.

Emei 12 zhuang is also famous for its very adaptive compact technics, meaning a slight small adaptive changes move makes a different technics.

small means compact and details. meaning a seems to be continuous technics might have a few technics hidden within it. So it is very adaptive to response to changes.


It is much compact then White Crane and other art. and in order to have this compactness a different dynamic structure is used. Thus, the snake slide worm moves way is needed. and also due to this "small" capability, it means Jin or power can be generated in short distance IE Inch power or Short power as WCK trade mark Tui Keng.

One certainly can compare the above clip with the below Iron Wire clip and see the different effect interm of body handling, power type, and compactness due to different power generation or dynamic structure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqkZ_PQi6NM

Russell's set was verified by the same Grandmaster of Emei as in Jim's article above.


And if you compare with the clip below from the old old timer WCner of different WCK family look for yourself what happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cqRp-YtuM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMT...eature=related

The Crane energy is pretty evident in lots of the SLT clips out there but not so often the snake slide worm moves. What I mean by that is I don't see it as obvious as it's being demonstrated above. Curious to know how or if people are expressing it in their SLT? And how is that energy cultivated in their SLT? If SLT itself is a complete system, then it must contain the method to do so right?

[Hendrik]

The Crane energy is pretty evident in lots of the SLT clips out there but not so often the snake slide worm moves.

What I mean by that is I don't see it as obvious as it's being demonstrated above.

Curious to know how or if people are expressing it in their SLT? And how is that energy cultivated in their SLT? If SLT itself is a complete system, then it must contain the method to do so right?

Hope this explain what you ask.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3ntC...eature=related


Crane is in general perform in an acute angle or snap motion. IE: your wist of the sun punch... etc.

Snake is flowing continuously, IE: your huen sau cycling in SLT. or when the hand smoothly turn into a lap sau while tracking the opponent's arm....

IMHO,
As soon as one doesnt use "brute force" and tense one's muscle dead hard to make it as there is power, similar to the Iron Wire of Hung Gar while doing SLT; the snake will surface automatically. Look at the above Russell's clip on how he did the set.
That is because the arm movement automatically default into a smooth continuous flowing action.

The SLT is design to generate and strengthen the power by keep increasing the flow of the hand /body medirian's Qi flow accord to the medirians everytime one practice SLT, instead of Tensing and relaxing or dynamic tension method of Hung Gar Iron Wire.
So, in this perspective, SLT's design belongs to the internal or "TaiJi " class of mechanics.

Thus it is extremely important to do SLT with just enough force applied.

IMHO
The evolution of losing of Snake in WCK for past few decades is a trend, thus more and more WCK default to White Crane style or become "harder" and not as "compact in details."

With the post 1920 introduction of Kiu Sau concept in many lineages as in other Southern TCMA the Snake further fade away due to the "Tracking and continuous" action become a "discrete" action. and thus the capability of Short/inch soft (yao) Jin is vanishing due to the discrete action doesnt support the Short Jin cultivation.

Today, A good reference on what WCK more closely look like is the Koo Lo Fung family type perform by their senior.

[theo]

Hope this explain what you ask.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3ntC...eature=related


Crane is in general perform in an acute or snap angle motion. IE: your wist of the sun punch... etc.

Snake is flowing continuously, IE: your huen sau cycling in SLT. or when the hand smoothly turn into a lap sau while tracking the opponent's arm....

Thanks Hendrik! I see what you mean now. Without starting a war of words about different lineages and families. It seems those qualities are emphasized more or less depending on how it was taught to each of us...For example, I've heard before how the wrist in fook sau is to be pulled tight and that in retrospect, does cut the energy off right there. Or forcing the elbow into the center, that also doesn't seem to be natural, producing a forced tightness in my experience. In the clip you showed here, I see you also have the "worm" moves in the "sam bai fut" section? I also thought it was very interesting when you spoke about simply using intention on the lao-gong to move there!

[theo]

Hope this explain what you ask.


IMHO,
As soon as one doesnt use "brute force" and tense one's muscle dead hard to make it there is power similar to the Iron Wire of Hung Gar while doing SLT the snake will show.
That is because the arm movement automatically default into a smooth continuous flowing action. The SLT is design to generate and strengthen the power by keep increasing the flow of the hand's /body medirian's Qi flow accord to the medirians instead of Tensing and relaxing style of Hung Gar Iron Wire. So, in this perspective, SLT is design close to the TaiJi class of mechanics.

Thus it is extremely important to do SLT with just enough force applied.

IMHO
The evolution of losing of Snake in WCK for past few decades is a trend, thus more and more WCK default to White Crane style or become "harder" and not as "compact in details."

I have to agree, as I have myself been using tense structure in the beginning (maybe most of us do? ) but recently have begun to notice more of the natural automatic default that you mentioned...it's interesting why the Snake is fading out, not implying who has or doesn't have it. To me, that aspect seems to require a different mindset, one where you'd have to be more sensitive to the energy you feel...Just that from what I've observed, I did not encounter the type of "adaptive" flow that would occur but more of "hard" energy being exchanged.

[Hendrik]

Thanks Hendrik! I see what you mean now. Without starting a war of words about different lineages and families.

It seems those qualities are emphasized more or less depending on how it was taught to each of us...

For example, I've heard before how the wrist in fook sau is to be pulled tight and that in retrospect, does cut the energy off right there. Or forcing the elbow into the center, that also doesn't seem to be natural, producing a forced tightness in my experience.

In the clip you showed here, I see you also have the "worm" moves in the "sam bai fut" section? I also thought it was very interesting when you spoke about simply using intention on the lao-gong to move there!

1, re read my post above, I just add more information.

2, Yes, it is depending on Lineage because evolution is nature and serve a good purspose. However, IMHO, we must know why is it as it is at every step of evolution.

3, IMHO, the today's general knowledge on Chinese TCMA is no longer enough to support the training of SLT. Thus, I brought up what it is at 1850 era to show the existance of those elements.

4, when one do Fook Sau that way, it serves one one purpose with a trade off of the flow of energy or adaptiveness. if one face a Hung Gar iron hand bridge then there will be a crush of power ... as soon as one knows it that is fine.

My thesis here is not to say what is right or wrong but what are the components and uniqueness of WCK , you can formulate your own WCK as you like it, it is perfectly ok for me.

[theo]

1, re read my post above, I just add more information.

2, Yes, it is depending on Lineage because evolution is nature and serve a good purspose. However, IMHO, we must know why is it as it is at every step of evolution.

3, IMHO, the today's general knowledge on Chinese TCMA is no longer enough to support the training of SLT. Thus, I brought up what it is at 1850 era to show the existance of those elements.

4, when one do Fook Sau that way, it serves one one purpose with a trade off of the flow of energy or adaptiveness.

Yup, so if all those elements are what makes WCK WCK, then they key to all of the above is in SLT. But, as you said, there must be a specific way to train SLT in order to develop progressively. It doesn't make sense to repeat it a million times to know...

[Hendrik]

Yup, so if all those elements are what makes WCK WCK, then they key to all of the above is in SLT. But, as you said, there must be a specific way to train SLT in order to develop progressively. It doesn't make sense to repeat it a million times to know...

yes, thus, it said " the whole body must not using brute force" otherwise one doesnt get the result.

See, there are two ways of how to cultivate power in general. By tensing and relaxing. or by guiding the flow to promote strength. and SLT IMHO is design as the second type.

So using tensing and relaxing or dynamic tension will not produce the same power result as the guiding the flow.

However, guiding the flow is not that easy to truly practice because it needs to relax every part of the body and it takes time to see result ; compare with if you tense your arm you feel POWER.

So, as in the internal art practice, when you dont feel power you actually has power when you feel power you are actually tense up a certain area of your body and the power is not flowing out....etc.

That is the reasons behind all of these ancient training method and as how different people like to do with their WCK that is up to them and I respect it all.;