Ninja Vanish!!
Another thing that would help is having more Chinese Martial Arts tournaments with San Shou and Shuai Jiao divisions for competition. I may be wrong in this but it seems there are more tournaments focused on open hand forms, weapon forms, push hands, and continuous sparring which is not the same as San Shou competition. Hell, I just checked the calendar for here on KFM and did not see one tournament in the next few months that had either division. Just saying.
"The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". -Cus D'Amato
Banned
Sports Competitions are not necessarily the best bench marks for improving the TCMAs, which were never designed for the sports arena to start with.Originally Posted by EarthDragon
I believe that sometimes when having studied properly one's own TCMA style, and coming to the conclusion that something that is missing, one can look for answers in other lineages of the same style, or even in related styles of TCMAs, instead of perhaps training in other methodologies which may have contradicting concepts or principles to one's own core style of Kung fu.
For example, the Mainland Chinese style of Wing Chun in which I have experience in has pretty good foot work, it also has many hand and leg strikes, together with grappling/Chin-na, and even some ground training, that I have not come across in the Hong Kong based schools that I have seen.
I am sure that one can do the same in Northern Mantis, that is, find useful variations between different lineages that can enrich one's own TCMA practice and fighting arsenal.
Agreed 100%.
Registered User
If we can train our striking art the same way as we train our throwing art (learn 1 move, counters for that move, and counters for those counters), we may have better result in our striking art development. For example, when we train our hook punch, we need to know that our opponent will most likely dodge under it. A back fist on top of your opponent's head will be a good counter for the counter. If your opponent blocks that back fist, an upper cut will be good counter for that counter too. This is why in CMA, the hook punch always trained along with back fist and upper cut. This combo even exists in the Mantis 乱接(Luan Jie) form. This is one good reason to learn "form" so you don't have to find it out by yourself in sparring many years later.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-12-2010 at 07:59 PM.
Registered User
Totally agreed.
Registered User
"Sport" can help you to advance to your final "combat" goal. The only difference between "sport" and "combat" is you apply legal moves in "sport" but you apply illegal moves in "combat". All the set up, entering, ... are still the same. Only the "finish" are different.
In "sport" when you opponent taps out, you let him go. In "combat" when your opponent taps out, you still kill him. How much difference can that be?
Banned
I agree with you, up to a point, as sport fighting has obvious benefits from a fighting point of view.
As I stated, I believe that sports competitions are not necessarily the best bench marks for improving the TCMAs. I did not say that they did not have their uses.
IMHO, the problem with the TCMAs is not based on the fact that they do not sports fight, but that it is based on unqualified sifus, teaching incompletely, stuff that they have made up along the way, resulting in the mediocracy that we see all over the place, including in this forum.
Unfortunately, these unqualified and conmen "sifus" are in the majority. iMHO, this is the real problem with the TCMAs, and not the fact that they do not fight in sports competitions.
Obviously, there is no denying that there are manifestations of TCMAs in contact fighting tournaments, for example in San da competitions, but that is not my point.
I believe that there is a difference in mindset and the techniques that go with those mindsets. That is all.
I believe that in real life, it may be all over before tapping, and that is related to the different mindset. Again, I am not saying that sports fighters cannot fight for real, or anything like that, as that would be silly of me.
IMHO, it is a question of mindset and the techniques that are available for each mindset. That is, techniques are limited when used in a sporting context, as compared to no rules mindset training, while using techniques that would be illegal in the sporting arena.
Of course, contact fighting practice should be present in the training curriculum for all TCMA-ists for obvious reasons, however, I still believe that sports competitions are not necessarily a bench mark for improving the state of TCMAs today.
Ninja Vanish!!
If this is the case, please give me an example of a training method that is better than fighting someone at 100 percent, full contact with limited rules. This is one of the major problems with the "state" of TCMA as many describe it. HW you and many others like to discredit sport fighting but the bottom line is it is an excellent training tool and testing ground. When you train with your Sifu or classmates/training partners there will always be a certain level of compliance and even when sparring hard there will be some give because they are your training partners and many are your friends.I agree with you, up to a point, as sport fighting has obvious benefits from a fighting point of view.
As I stated, I believe that sports competitions are not necessarily the best bench marks for improving the TCMAs. I did not say that they did not have their uses.
IMHO, the problem with the TCMAs is not based on the fact that they do not sports fight, but that it is based on unqualified sifus, teaching incompletely, stuff that they have made up along the way, resulting in the mediocracy that we see all over the place, including in this forum.
Unfortunately, these unqualified and conmen "sifus" are in the majority. iMHO, this is the real problem with the TCMAs, and not the fact that they do not fight in sports competitions.
Obviously, there is no denying that there are manifestations of TCMAs in contact fighting tournaments, for example in San da competitions, but that is not my point.
I believe that there is a difference in mindset and the techniques that go with those mindsets. That is all.
I believe that in real life, it may be all over before tapping, and that is related to the different mindset. Again, I am not saying that sports fighters cannot fight for real, or anything like that, as that would be silly of me.
IMHO, it is a question of mindset and the techniques that are available for each mindset. That is, techniques are limited when used in a sporting context, as compared to no rules mindset training, while using techniques that would be illegal in the sporting arena.
Of course, contact fighting practice should be present in the training curriculum for all TCMA-ists for obvious reasons, however, I still believe that sports competitions are not necessarily a bench mark for improving the state of TCMAs today.
When you fight in a full contact environment, be it MMA, San Shou, Muay Thai, Boxing, ect, ect, the guy across the ring/cage doesn't give a sh**it about you. He wants to take your head off, knock you out, tap you out, and look good doing it. Do you see what I am getting at? You can ramble on about sport fighting not being real but unless your going out and getting in fights with real, trained fighters on the street with no rules on a regular basis this is the best training and testing method one can have, period. I would love to see San Shou and Shuai Jiao become the standard for Kung Fu and not the minority. If and when this happens, you will see a completely different outlook on TCMA.
"The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". -Cus D'Amato
(. Y .)
I was accepted as one of eight disciples of Chung - Just knowing that about me should say a lot about my Mantis ability. Even without regularly practicing mantis for the last 7 years because of a work related relocation, I'd still say I'm still one of the top mantis players in the nation (that's why I think a lot of you guys are douches- no offense). Now I've never been afraid of using my real name, so ask the person who you were so in awe of attending his seminar and getting your picture taken with if Kurt from Michigan is any good at mantis. - I'm only putting this out there because I hate the false argument that too many TCMA-ers fall into which is "you must not be studying the realz kung fu 'cuz if you had you would be the shiznit and wouldn't need anything else." My grandmaster cross trained styles even my Sifu crosstraines when he finds people worthy of teaching him something. It's not a sign of weakness to cross train, rather it's a sign that you're secure in your system. Insecurity leads to sheltering and close-mindedness.
Anyway - like many of you - I'm tired of too much MMA is better talk... even though sports fu-ers have a point. Too much of the so called realz kung fu ain't working when put into a pressure test. I'm one to explore why not? I also feel that it's our obligation to find out why not and fix it. I personally think a sports base level of training is probably the solution. Not sports based - but a "base level" of sports training. Maybe it's the San Da basic curriculem with a little BJJ. Maybe it's something different. Just like the Chin Wu said you have to master the Chin Wu basic curriculem before you chose the style you were going to specialize in at the Wu (Eagle Claw, Mantis, or Tai Chi). I think we should develop a sports combat standard level of training before we get into the realz TCMA.
TenTigers - that was exactly what I was referring to.
(. Y .)
Here's my story. About 10 years ago, I was a young hot shot TCMA'er who decided to get into the San Shou ring. Unfortunately I went against a student many years my junior who sport trained at a great school in Cleveland (one of what ILKMFD calls a true fight school). This guy destroyed me - at that moment - I didn't blame the system because the system's great and my Sifu is awesome - I looked internally and asked myself what could I do to get better. Things like getting better sparring partners became paramount - adding Judo to work on throwing - working out with the best people I can find - entering more competitions - and now I've added BJJ. I've already warned my wife that even at the ripe old age of 36, I'll probably do at least one MMA event next year (too many of our guys are winning for me not to get in on it - and you only live once - plus it makes a great story for me to retell when I live in a retirement home many years from now).
Shifu
mightb
really dude? I am 6th generation under shyun kwon long what is that supposed to mean? we are tougher becuse of it?I was accepted as one of eight disciples of Chung - Just knowing that about me should say a lot about my Mantis ability. Even without regularly practicing mantis for the last 7 years because of a work related relocation, I'd still say I'm still one of the top mantis players in the nation (that's why I think a lot of you guys are douches- no offense
you havent practied mantis in 7 years but your one of the top in the nation? LOL what brought you to this conclusion?
as far as going to meet Raymond Fogg yes I was honered to be invited. Just as I was honnerd to meet many other mantis practionores like ad hsu and branden Li, , do you think they hopld you on a pedastal cuz your the top manti guy in the nation? LMAO I am gong to ask this on the mantis board and see if others agree with you OK
KUNG FU USA
www.eightstepkungfu.com
Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
Wu style Taiji Chuan
Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."
(. Y .)
You missed my point entirely. Read slowly for comprehension - Too many TCMA-ers say that people who cross train do it because they've never seen the realz kung fu. That is not the case at all. Many people have seen the realz kung fu and still choose to cross train - so I say stop using that as an argument as to why we shouldn't look at having some type of base level of sports training. I think that people like Master Wang and the Combat SC association have probably the best grasp on what this should be because they've been doing it the longest using TCMA techniques and methods.
(. Y .)
Never said I was the top - just in the upper percentage
-yes I did just use the "you wouldn't know the realz kung fu argument", ha ha yeah take that!
Loud City
Oh the irony.....
You are Kurt Baringer, correct?
Last edited by MasterKiller; 10-13-2010 at 07:36 AM.
He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman
(. Y .)
Yes. Like I said, I don't hide who I am because I don't feel I have to.
Loud City
I'd love to see what "one of the top mantis guys in the country" looks like sparring. Where's the videos?
He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman
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