exactly; if more people understood this, we wouldn't have so many problems, and all qigong teachers would be out of work!Originally Posted by woliveri
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exactly; if more people understood this, we wouldn't have so many problems, and all qigong teachers would be out of work!
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It is not my intention to be rude or a know it all, only to help clarify some very common misunderstandings concerning Qi. To fully understand Qi one must understand Tao and the processes of mind.
Most people "believe" what they are taught and assume the truth of it based upon the traditon that "it is old and has always been taught that way" or some other such assumption. Accepting the teachings of a teacher concerning such an ineffable subject without independent study at some point leads one to a very narrow view and understanding of a topic none of which can be proved objectively. But it can be understood according to context.
It is important to understand Tao and how the mind functions in order to have a comprehensive understanding of Qi. One must understand how the mind uses symbolic representations to explain incomprehensible/ineffeable phenomena.
It isn't that everyone else is wrong, its that most understanding of Qi is based upon traditional teachings which are a narrow, limited perspective, and accept these teachings without question. This is not learning it is blind following.
If most people are happy with partial or incomplete understanding, that is fine for them. But to presume one understands completely because, "that is the way I learned it" or because "this teaching is old and traditional" is inviting foolishness into ones life and allows that foolishness to grow weeds obscuring the truth of the matter.
I do not expect anyone to blindly accept anything I say. It would be nothing more than what most are already doing. Switching one foolishness for another and does not improve ones overall understanding. However, I have not said anything that cannot be directly experienced/known for oneself if one is willing to challenge convention and work towards a more complete understanding of Tao and the processes of the mind.
Last edited by Scott R. Brown; 10-15-2010 at 06:41 PM.
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You have snatched the pebble from my hand.......
......it is time for you to leave.......
.......don't let the door hit you on the way out!!!!!
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Yes Scott but you are not giving any depth to the concept of Qi. You are only saying Qi which gives a very superficial sounding arguement.
You are also giving your view of what you've found to be true. Have you ever come across a true master? In 20 years I 've come across at least two, maybe three. People who when you stand next to them they radiate a very strong qi field. If the human body does not store qi then how do you account for this effect?
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Hi woliveri,
It is very simple,
Tell the masters you met some internet idiot who says, "Qi is neither existent, nor in-existent!" If they understand what that means and can expand on it for you, they are past the beginners stage. If they do not understand it, they are NOT masters of knowledge/understanding, only experts in application!
Secondly, I have explained in very simple terms, for the benefit of frankiemantis, what he needs to do in order to accomplish his purpose.
I do not concern myself, in general, with the traditionally accepted details of Qi, these are the leaves of a tree. If one wishes to understand in depth one must understand the "root". When one understands the root one understands the tree. If you have an in depth understanding of the principles of Tao you know this already! If you do not understand this, keep investigating Tao in order to prove it for yourself. Then you will have knowledge as opposed to belief!
One does not require knowledge of an in depth philosophy of Qi in order for it to work/function in their life. The processes of Qi function for everyone regardless of their understanding of the traditionally taught intricacies. If one is interested in the intricacies good for them, it is not objectively knowable anyway, it is subjectively interpreted, this is the difference and why it is unimportant for most people. The intricacies over-complicate a simple process to no overall benefit.
Know the root and you will know the tree better than one who only knows the tree! This is a foundational principle of Tao!
Last edited by Scott R. Brown; 10-15-2010 at 07:45 PM.
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Wow Scott, well said. I agree with everything you say about Qi.
I was taught when we give energy to someone, since our chakras were opened, the qi passes through us to the person were giving energy to. Almost like were conductors. I was also taught, that in higher levels, we either expand our aura with exercises like Iron wire, or we become a black hole and pull energy in around us with exercises to "store" Qi. Thats why we can feel the "masters." I was also taught that unless you can live without your body, than you really haven't mastered anything. Just wondered what peoples thoughts were on that.
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Hi Scott R. Brown,
You wrote "Once one unblocks their barriers.." That takes intention. I agree with everything else.
mickey
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I'd spend less time concerning yourself with what you have been "taught" and more time questioning everything and considering the nature of your own experience; of course, you should probably not concern yourself with anything I say either...
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you should spend more time standing next to movie stars, virtuosi musicians, powerful business-men/women, sports stars, hot shot surgeons or politicians - all these people "radiate a very strong qi field";
what is a "master"? what is "mastery"? your criteria of "radiation" is a rather misleading one, IMPO, because it is in part based on a degree of "otherness", of specialness - that is, something that is not of the norm; it is therefore in the realm of phenomena - whereas I would propose that "true" mastery is stark, simple, profoundly ordinary - where in "haul water, chop wood" is there anything about "radiating a strong qi field"? now don't get me wrong - it doesn't mean that one should NOT "radiate" - it is certainly conceivable that a "master" could do this - but IMPO, this phenomenna in and of itself does not denote mastery - it is simple a physiological byproduct of certain states, which could be natural or practiced;
so what is true mastery? let me ask you a question - when a master sits in a chair, what is it like? when he eats his dinner, how does he do it? when he takes a sh1t, what is there to it?
Heart Sutra states: "All nature is manifestation of emptiness - neither gain, nor loss, neither soiled nor pure"; if so, what room is there for a "mastery" that is anything other than living in context of this? hungry? eat; tired? sleep;
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That is true. I was speaking about "contrived" intention as opposed to naturally occurring intention.
An inherent function of mind is intention, however, what I meant was that "contrived" intention is not necessary. In other words, it is not necessary to employ special exercises designed to send Qi to various parts of your body or to manipulate it in various manners. It will go where you intend automatically, not because you are intending the Qi there, but because it goes where you need it as a matter of its natural function. In essence, however it is already there to begin with, unless there is a barrier created by disease, injury or emotional instability. If one of these are the case, intending the Qi there will not help. What one needs to do is treat the barrier, not enhance Qi. This is because Qi does not need enhancing, it is elimination of barriers that one should focus upon.
Exercising focused "intentional" direction does not really make a difference in the free flow of Qi. Any indication in ones experience that appears to demonstrate this is a misunderstanding of what is occurring. It is confusing correlation with causation. At best "contrived" intention for the purpose of moving Qi makes one aware of Qi's natural movement that one then misinterprets as the Qi moving according to their "contrived" direction.
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What is IMPO? In My Pompous Opinion?
What is a Master Carpenter? What is the difference between this man/woman and the time he/she first started?so what is true mastery? let me ask you a question - when a master sits in a chair, what is it like? when he eats his dinner, how does he do it? when he takes a sh1t, what is there to it?
Heart Sutra states: "All nature is manifestation of emptiness - neither gain, nor loss, neither soiled nor pure"; if so, what room is there for a "mastery" that is anything other than living in context of this? hungry? eat; tired? sleep;
IMO you and Scott "think" you know or have experienced more that you have. Or course, IMHO.
Best regards,
Resigned
I think that part of the "mistake" is that for example, one can generate through intention certain physiological changes, such as enhancing blood flow to an area of the body, e.g. - the palm / fingers; having a lack of full understanding of what is going on, "ancient" cultures will describe these changes metaphorically - if my hand feels warmer and tingle / throbbing, then it seems like there is more "life", energy, etc. there, so therefore the thinking is that there is more "qi"; similarly, if my autonomic nervous system starts firing off in various ways as a result of certain meditative / breath / movement exercises, then likewise this will be attributed to "qi", f one has no notion of sympathetics, parasympathetics, their anatomical locations and their physiological functions; don't get me wrong, I;m not trying to be reductive and saying, "oh, it's just the nervous system, that's all" - far from it! one can describe things precisely and still be in awe of the "miracle" of their function, and appreciate the profundity of the complex dance that permeates out entire beings and the environment around us - but one doesn't need to coat it w something as vague and indirect as "qi";
Resigned
In my personal opinion; if you consider it pompous, that's your filter functioning; it also suggests that you find that I am using my opinion as a means of ego-inflation; if you do, that is fine, but it will limit a critical discourse on the topic if you color it in that manner
a big difference in one regard; no difference in another; but let me ask you, does the master carpenter act as a Master Carpenter, or is he simply a master carpenter?
again, your filter; it would appear that you are also failing to look past the messenger and consider the message dispassionately; but that's ok; your agreement / non-agreement is of no consequence to either you or myself;
Last edited by taai gihk yahn; 10-16-2010 at 09:18 AM.
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What's your point? That the Master Carpenter was already there and it took time and work to bring those talents out? Like a sculpter with a piece of stone? Or are you talking about Ego and is the Master Carpenter filled with Ego?
What is your message? That Qi doesn't exist? That a Qigong Master is a cheat?again, your filter; it would appear that you are also failing to look past the messenger and consider the message dispassionately; but that's ok; your agreement / non-agreement is of no consequence to either you or myself;
What is it you want to say?
Registered User
Have you considered that your own comments may appear pompous as well?
First address your own pomposity before you concern yourself with the pomposity of others. If you are concerned about the pomposity of others, you haven't fully addressed your own!
When you do, you will find you are no longer concerned about the pomposity of others!
IMHO you have experienced much less than you believe you have!
My guess is you come to your incorrect conclusion because what we are saying contradicts with what you believe. I don't blame you for your feelings however, most people are trapped by their own fixed artificial constructs and do not recognize they are chained to their attachments or that the chains are of their own making.
Try thinking outside the box a little. It will expand your understanding and change your interpretation of your experiences. It can only increase your understanding and knowledge. Question everything!
What you have been taught is a symbolic representation of what occurs. It is not an absolute, it is merely one manner of learning and practice.
Think of two different people tasting an orange. They each describe the experience, but it differs based upon each person's ability to express their experience to others. Neither description is necessarily wrong. The are merely different ways of expressing an identical experience. But neither description is the actual taste of an orange and can never represent in the slightest manner the actual experience. So the description, the method, the practice is merely a means to guide the seeker to their own direct experiences.
You will interpret your experiences according to your predetermined fixed view, this limits your experience and understanding. When you discover for yourself that the method/practice you adhere to is merely an artificial construct and one of many and merely a symbolic representation of the truth of the matter, you will be at the beginning of learning directly for yourself.
The common denominator in all your experiences is YOU. For deeper understanding you must question yourself and discover your chains.
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