Yes, people mistake a symbolic representation for a fixed description and then become trapped in the chains of their own making!Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn
Registered User
Yes, people mistake a symbolic representation for a fixed description and then become trapped in the chains of their own making!
Registered User
He has a Qi Gong master he has associated with for many many years! He is quite a good one too!
Registered User
Chi moves. you can move your chi. It goes to where you direct it. Anyone doing any gongs, (eagle claw, iron anything, etc.) is aware of that. Intention has a huge effect on chi. IMPO
Registered User
Scott, you think I hang on every word of my teacher or of a book? If so, you're wrong. I reply based on my experiences of my practice and of my interaction with qigong masters. I don't read books, I have no teacher, I only practice. So, your assumptions are incorrect.Have you considered that your own comments may appear pompous as well?
First address your own pomposity before you concern yourself with the pomposity of others. If you are concerned about the pomposity of others, you haven't fully addressed your own!
When you do, you will find you are no longer concerned about the pomposity of others!
IMHO you have experienced much less than you believe you have!
My guess is you come to your incorrect conclusion because what we are saying contradicts with what you believe. I don't blame you for your feelings however, most people are trapped by their own fixed artificial constructs and do not recognize they are chained to their attachments or that the chains are of their own making.
Try thinking outside the box a little. It will expand your understanding and change your interpretation of your experiences. It can only increase your understanding and knowledge. Question everything!
What you have been taught is a symbolic representation of what occurs. It is not an absolute, it is merely one manner of learning and practice.
Think of two different people tasting an orange. They each describe the experience, but it differs based upon each person's ability to express their experience to others. Neither description is necessarily wrong. The are merely different ways of expressing an identical experience. But neither description is the actual taste of an orange and can never represent in the slightest manner the actual experience. So the description, the method, the practice is merely a means to guide the seeker to their own direct experiences.
You will interpret your experiences according to your predetermined fixed view, this limits your experience and understanding. When you discover for yourself that the method/practice you adhere to is merely an artificial construct and one of many and merely a symbolic representation of the truth of the matter, you will be at the beginning of learning directly for yourself.
The common denominator in all your experiences is YOU. For deeper understanding you must question yourself and discover your chains.
And, you still have not answered my question regarding how a qigong master can radiate Qi. Radiate far more intensely than any other person on the street.
How can a Qigong master cause my feet to swell and become sunburnt red on the soles and tops of my feet with my shoes and socks on? How can a Qigong master radate qi so strongly that it is felt in my body?
If Qi cannot be accumulated or refined, or compressed or released, then what can we do with it?
Registered User
Hi woliveri,
I draw conclusions based upon your comments. Your comments reflect a very limited perspective and a decided paucity of self-knowledge. If I have come to an incorrect conclusion, please feel free to correct me, however do not be offended if I come to a wrong conclusion. We all draw conclusions based upon the evidence at hand. Some conclusions are correct, some are incorrect. You have drawn your own conclusions of TGY and myself, that are also incorrect.
Just as with your "pompousness" comments, it would benefit you more to examine your own self and be critical of your own self first and simply correct the false conclusions of others without taking offense. Since you do the same thing yourself!
I have not answered your questions, because I didn't quite understand them. Now that you have been more clear I will be happy to answer them:
You can feel these things from your Qi Masters because you want to or because you are susceptible to it. Hypnotists can do the very same things to susceptible and willing individuals. I have seen it done. I have also seen similar things accomplished by an American Indian Medicine Man. However, I can encounter these same individuals and they will not affect me in the least. Why is that do you think?
Because I do not buy into the fantasy! You do, so you are susceptible to fantastic experiences. I have had my share of fantastic experiences too, when I allow them. So I know how to turn them on and off, so to speak.
All these experiences are functions of the Mind, not functions of Qi. When you understand the functions of mind, the mystery disappears and can view the experiences from a better understanding of how they work and why.
Qi cannot be collected because it is ALREADY collected. It cannot be compressed because it is an illusion that it is compressed. It is a symbolic representation of what occurs. When one imposes a definition on an experience the mind uses the definition to confine the experience in question to that particular definition. This limits and confines the experience to the arbitrary and artificial definition. Any experience is always more than the definition we assign to it, just as the description of the taste of an orange is NOT the taste of an orange itself!
This is what I mean when I say it is essential to understand the root. When you understand the root of a thing you understand everything that springs from that root. When you understand the functions of the mind you understand how the mind takes symbolic representations and creates artificial definitions for experiences and how it then traps itself within those artificial definitions.
Just so you don't misunderstand and once again accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about, I was not the first to come up with this principle of Mind. You may benefit from studying Plato's Allegory of the Cave for another perspective on the same principle!
Registered User
It's ok that you have cornered yourself into this line of thinking. I understand what you are saying. I was involved in something called FieldTraining some 15 years ago. Anyway, For the most part, you are wrong. Sorry. These experiences I had no idea that they were coming. Nothing was said to me, nothing was suggested.Hi woliveri,
I draw conclusions based upon your comments. Your comments reflect a very limited perspective and a decided paucity of self-knowledge. If I have come to an incorrect conclusion, please feel free to correct me, however do not be offended if I come to a wrong conclusion. We all draw conclusions based upon the evidence at hand. Some conclusions are correct, some are incorrect. You have drawn your own conclusions of TGY and myself, that are also incorrect.
Just as with your "pompousness" comments, it would benefit you more to examine your own self and be critical of your own self first and simply correct the false conclusions of others without taking offense. Since you do the same thing yourself!
I have not answered your questions, because I didn't quite understand them. Now that you have been more clear I will be happy to answer them:
You can feel these things from your Qi Masters because you want to or because you are susceptible to it. Hypnotists can do the very same things to susceptible and willing individuals. I have seen it done. I have also seen similar things accomplished by an American Indian Medicine Man. However, I can encounter these same individuals and they will not affect me in the least. Why is that do you think?
Because I do not buy into the fantasy! You do, so you are susceptible to fantastic experiences. I have had my share of fantastic experiences too, when I allow them. So I know how to turn them on and off, so to speak.
All these experiences are functions of the Mind, not functions of Qi. When you understand the functions of mind, the mystery disappears and can view the experiences from a better understanding of how they work and why.
Qi cannot be collected because it is ALREADY collected. It cannot be compressed because it is an illusion that it is compressed. It is a symbolic representation of what occurs. When one imposes a definition on an experience the mind uses the definition to confine the experience in question to that particular definition. This limits and confines the experience to the arbitrary and artificial definition. Any experience is always more than the definition we assign to it, just as the description of the taste of an orange is NOT the taste of an orange itself!
This is what I mean when I say it is essential to understand the root. When you understand the root of a thing you understand everything that springs from that root. When you understand the functions of the mind you understand how the mind takes symbolic representations and creates artificial definitions for experiences and how it then traps itself within those artificial definitions.
Just so you don't misunderstand and once again accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about, I was not the first to come up with this principle of Mind. You may benefit from studying Plato's Allegory of the Cave for another perspective on the same principle!
What I see is your closed mind to what you have come to know as your truth. Again, I understand what you guys are saying, but it is very wrong to speak poorly of something you have yet to experience and because your minds are closed you will never experience it. People are influenced by what others say and the only reason I continue to post here is to give others a different, open, perspective.
Registered User
Very good! You see in others what you do yourself! For the third time!
You cannot see you are susceptible or do not want to believe it, that is understandable too. Just because you did not see it coming does NOT mean you are not susceptible, which is why I used the word susceptible. One may be susceptible without knowing they are susceptible just by having a specific worldview. You would not recognize your own susceptibility because most people cannot see beyond their own worldview.
Have you ever wondered why some people see ghosts or demons and are pestered by them while most people are completely non-affected? This is due to a worldview that makes one susceptible to having those types of experiences.
When your masters can do what they claim and/or what you have experienced to anyone at anytime under any conditions you and they might have something of value to share with the world. Otherwise, it is mostly useless fantasy, good for entertainment, but not much else!
Registered User
BTW, I have done myself what your masters have done rather easily and without years of Qi Gong exercises. And I was also quite young, in my early 20's.
I was in a cold room, so I decided to heat myself up with my mind. When others came to sit beside me they commented about how warm it was sitting next to me. They too felt my heat without being told what was going on. This was an act of mind, NOT Qi per se. Meaning, I did not collect, compress and projected it. I just decided to warm myself and Qi acted according to its natural function, without all those fancy shmancy exercises!
Last edited by Scott R. Brown; 10-16-2010 at 02:49 PM.
Resigned
not really the first part, although one could make an interesting argument to that effect, but more so the second part; in other words, again, what constitutes "mastery"? well, there may not be one answer, but to me, it involves a permeation of whatever it is one does into one's "natural" state of being; and of course, this is a very subjective notion, but I think it's a good place to start, because it is not fundamentally contingent on another person's say so - I mean, who is to say that someone is a "master"? logically, if one can do so without attachment, ego self-identification, etc., one ought to be able to say that about oneself just as easily as if someone else points it out - if one truly "lives" the practice, if it is truly infused into one's being, then the awareness as such is simply there - one acknowledges it, but at the same time one is not attached to it - it's basically like "hmmm, I have on white socks today; interesting..."; for example, at one point I "got" what it meant to be able to "turn on" the effect that many refer to as the Microcosmic Orbit; I can do it pretty much at will standing, sitting, and to a lesser extent lying down; now, TBH, so what? well, it feels really cool; and when I do it, it moves my autonomic physiology in a certain "direction"; as such, I consider that I have "mastered" this particular thing; does it mean I stop learning from the experience? no; could I teach it to someone else? probably; does it mean I hang out a sign and advertise myself as a "Qigong Master"? no way! (I mean, who wants students? ugh...)
so in a sense, the ego bit is getting to the heart of things - the master carpenter just does what he does - he doesn't go around thinking "I am a Master Carpenter, and today the Master Carpenter will Masterfully Carpent a house, ah ha-haaa!"; similarly, a qigong "master" (which I think is much harder to define, but we'll just stay w that for now) would just do what he did, and his qigong practice would be effortlessly infused and interpenetrated with his regular life - so when he sits, he's "doing" qigong; when he walks, eats, sleeps, sh1ts, does his daily movement routine, teaches students, screws his wife (or his mistress), it's all part of his "qigong" practice; whether or not he lives up to some external estimation of what a qigong master is SUPPOSED to be like, well, that's another story - TBH, I'd be more wary of someone with a too polished public image, it suggests separation of his practice from his life when he's not "on"...
I have no message; I am only asking questions that I believe point to the heart of a particular matter
what do you mean by "exists"? IMPO, qi "exists", but not in the sense that it is a distinct, quantifiable entity; qi is a metaphorical descriptor of the integrated, net effect of the function of all the various bodily systems within the human body and the environment within which it operates (a.k.a. the universe); so breathing, blood flow, venous return, lymphatic flow, muscle tone, neural conductivity, digestion, endocrine function, circadian rhythms, cellular respiration, etc., et.c, etc. - these are ALL aspects of "qi"; since the "ancient" Chinese lacked the technology to observe, describe and quantify many of these processes individually, they utilized grosser means to qualify the amalgam: looking, listening, smelling, touching, tasting - so it's very empirical, but at the same time it is an empiricism based on pattern recognition and interaction thereof; as such, it is a HIGHLY subjective practice - so, therefore, no two TCM docs assess and deal with the same patient quite the same way (of course, one can say the same for allopaths, but the thrust with biomedical medicine is to be relatively more objective, and while individual skill is stil a factor, reproducibility between practitioners is the desired norm - and there certainly is a great advantage to this way of doing thins in terms of standard of care for many things - of course, it does have its short-comings as well);
I think the mistake is to try to separate qi out as some sort of unique "force" that can be directed, measured, etc.; this goes against the integrated nature underlying it's description, and creates a false notion of hiow "it" behaves...
define cheat - if you mean someone who is deliberately misleading others, for example someone who learned qigong from a video, has no inner awareness of what it entails, and then just passes it on as if he learned it from some old Chinese guy on a mountain top, well then, ok, but that's easy;
what about someone who is telling others that they need a specific system in order to achieve what they could, with a little bit of self-awareness in a certain direction, pretty much glean and apply for themselves without the need of a teacher (the expression "selling water by the riverbank" comes to mind...)? well, if he sincerely believes in the need for the system, then it's one thing - it's a shared delusion; but what if he KNOWS that they don't need the system but teaches it anyway? well, if he is doing it in order to keep students, then yes, he's a cheat; but what if he KNOWS you don't ultimately need the system, but uses the "hook" of the system to get people in the door, but his ultimate "goal" is to get them to actually drop the system, just using it to initially figure out how to listen to themselves clearly, and once they have done so, he provides them with the spaciousness to then move on or stay as they see fit? well, he is still a cheat, but he is a cheat in accordance with something different, IMPO...
see I think that the "problem" is that when someone self-identifies with themselves as a Qigong Teacher / Master - the problem is that once one does so, one's ego structure, as well as livlihood potentially, as dependent upon that label - this is not to say one cannot or should not teach, or cannot or should not even call themselves a Qigong Master - the question is WHY? is it to reinforce one's own sense of self, or as an "expedient means" to help others get over their own personal projections / habitual prejudices in order to engage them in a practice of self-liberation? if the latter, then that's that, and no matter how one is challenged as to their authenticity, one is secure, even if it means loosing all of one's students! if the former, then one will react defensively, even hostilely, to having their image challenged, even if it is done rightfully!
I don't "want" or "need" to say anything - I am simply using this as an opportunity to engage on this sort topic for my own personal reasons;
if so, then I am surprised that my questions are seemingly so surprising to you...
but I will take you at your word, and generally agree with you - although I do see my teacher from time to time, I pretty much do my own thing at this point; fortunately, he is of the last "type" of teacher I mentioned - the one who gives beginners formal (although individualized) practice, but when they "get it", he doesn't try to keep them locked into a dependent state (in fact, he is sorta known for gently encouraging students to actually leave the school if they are not sure they want to stay!)
"we" don't "do" anything with it - left to its own devices, the physiology self-regulates just fine - the only thing we can "do" is to, in a sense, get out of its way, and let the natural drive towards homeostasis; unfortunately, this doesn't always jive with the socioeconomic rhythms of our culture - can you imagine telling your boss "sorry, I can't come into work for the next 3 days because my parasympathetic nervous system needs me to lie on my floor while I experience a variety of erratic, spontaneous breathing cycles, sweat profusely, cry from time to time and allow my body to spontaneously move in strange patterns for hours at a time; and then I will need about a week to reintegrate after that"; in fact, if one reads certain Taoist texts, formal qigong practice is regarded as a corruption of "naturalness"!
the "problem" is that this sort of practice cannot be dictated, regulated or cashed-in on by anyone, because it cannot be formalized - meaning that you don't really need a teacher to let your body/mind complex do what it wants to do; in fact, it is, in a way, highly anti-authoritarian, because it doesn't require societal convention of ANY kind, except for allowance for it to occur!
Registered User
hi FrankieMantis,
Quite the thread here.
As you can see, everyone has their own personal road...go with your gut, and don't be afraid to believe in your imagination.
You can chose your path better than anyone else here...though, you've probably noticed that yourself by now.
Registered User
To TGY, The "pompotis of love",
WOW!!!!!
Your pompousness has prompted me to pontificate the pleasures of pompocacity to a plenitude of people for plenary purposes!
Of course I will charge for the services...probably!
Last edited by Scott R. Brown; 10-16-2010 at 03:30 PM.
Registered User
Quite alot of reply's and opinions. Thanks for all the input.
Registered User
Again, I understand what you are saying. However, everyone is not born/created equally and some need internal exercise(s) to help facilitate that opening. Not mind only. I know a woman who in her youth told me she could cause water in a bucket or pool to "bounce" by patting the water some distance above it with her hand. She was born with a completely different body and start than I and so were you. You are at a disadvantage because of that. You apparently have not struggled with health or energy issues as others have. I have read tranquil sitting where the author had great results from this taoist method. I have tried it and have not had such results as many write on the web with the same results (in Chinese). I've had much greater results from standing. Standing will open the body much faster than sitting. But, to be fair, my standing teacher taught that a combination of standing and sitting is good. In fact, two of the highest level guys I've come across used standing and sitting in combination. So I do understand what you are saying.BTW, I have done myself what your masters have done rather easily and without years of Qi Gong exercises. And I was also quite young, in my early 20's.
I was in a cold room, so I decided to heat myself up with my mind. When others came to sit beside me they commented about how warm it was sitting next to me. They too felt my heat without being told what was going on. This was an act of mind, NOT Qi per se. Meaning, I did not collect, compress and projected it. I just decided to warm myself and Qi acted according to its natural function, without all those fancy shmancy exercises!
Everyone is different and we cannot say just one method is perfect for all. We could say that each method has it's place in each individual's progression. Just like each tool is used to take an engine apart. Each tool when it is needed until the job is done.
To say what I experienced is BS and that I was open to suggestion is plain wrong. You're strong headed in your opinion and this closes doors for you. I've seen a lot of qigong masters. Across the US and while living in China. Most I would say are teachers rather than masters. Very few can be called master in my book but they are out there.
Registered User
taai gihk yahn,
I'm pretty much in agreement here with what you have written although while I've studied western science it has little connection with me in this topic.
In China this stuff is everywhere just like football is here in the states. In China the atmosphere is different and people are "aware" of what less than honest people can present for money or fame.
My first Qigong "Master" (Chinese) refused to be called master but rather teacher. He also refused money to be taught. At the same time I consider him to be at a very high level.
I've had three people in the past 20+ years to teach me like that. All good people.
I'm a bit tired now... can repsond more later.. need to get some more Qi
Registered User
Please recall, from one of my earlier posts, that I only said these exercises are "not necessary" and that "there is a difference between not necessary and not beneficial." I have never said they are not beneficial.
The conundrum of, should I stand, should I sit, should I do Large Orbit, small orbit, circle my hands or arms this way or that way etc. Is mostly irrelevant. It is all a symbolic representation.
It all comes down to, do some simple rhythmic exercise, maintain good (comfortable) posture, breath easy and naturally and calm the mind. These exercises, as simply as I have described them, go all the way back to the first known text on Tao called Nei-yeh (Inward Training) which precedes Lao Tzu.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote