Why Is WCK WCK? Will Not Be Deleted

[Wayfaring]

I would humbly said that very few have understood the forms and the principles behind them. That would be a first step before going on to applications.

I would say that Hendrik knows what he is talking about. Everything else is everybody elses problem!

You and humble are not in the same universe. If you like Hendrik, then join his club. You guys can tell each other how beautiful your 'core fundamentals' are.

Oh please don't tell us that you have the super dooper "improved" Wing Chun....

Oh no, that is what the world needed, another modern kung fu style founder....LOL!

No I don't. I have no intention on founding anything or starting any school. I'll leave that to all the 'sifus' out there.

I happen to know people who have used Wing Chun for fighting in this generation.

Yes I know. And you personally know the tooth fairy. Please, introduce us.

Evidence from the real world pretty much shows that NOT knowing the core curriculum never stopped anybody making clueless comments about any given kung fu style!

Which is why you post here a lot.

Hendrik can speak his mind, and he is qualified because he actually PRACTICES wing chun!

Hendrik can speak his mind. I can speak mine as well.

Any discipline has a curriculum. The more complicated the discipline, then the more complicated and profound their curriculum will be........

Because that's what we're after in training a martial art. A "complicated, profound curriculum". It couldn't have anything to do with hand to hand fighting skills.

[Hardwork108]

You and humble are not in the same universe.

Oh yes we are, that is why I humbly practice TCMAs and humbly post in a TCMA forum.

If you like Hendrik, then join his club. You guys can tell each other how beautiful your 'core fundamentals' are.

I would rather join his club, which is a Wing Chun Kung fu club than your "MMA is Best" club, and then come here and post cluelessly in a TCMA forum and end up drowning in discussions that are way above my head.

No I don't. I have no intention on founding anything or starting any school.

Well that is a relief, for a minute I thought that you were going to go into partnership with Dave Ross.....LOL!

I'll leave that to all the 'sifus' out there.

And so you should, after all the real sifus are the ones who actually practice kung fu, unlike certain people, cough, cough....!

Yes I know. And you personally know the tooth fairy. Please, introduce us.

Sometimes I get the feeling that I will meet the tooth fairy way before I meet an intelligent MMA-ist....LOL!

Which is why you post here a lot.

I post here because I practice the TCMAs and hence I can provide some information and personal perspective, while at the same time learn new things from genuine TCMA posters such as Hendrik, EarthDragon, Vajamuntri and a few others.

Why are you here?

Hendrik can speak his mind.

Of course he can. He is a TCMA practitioner and he is posting in a Kung Fu/TCMA forum. Hendrik is also a researcher and a scholar.

So, my question to you, Mr "MMA Best", AGAIN, is what are you doing here?

I can speak mine as well.

I believe that even Western scientisits agree that to speak one's mind, one must first have a mind........

Because that's what we're after in training a martial art. A "complicated, profound curriculum". It couldn't have anything to do with hand to hand fighting skills.

Yes it does, but it will take relatively longer, but the benefits far outweight the time sacrificed.

[Hardwork108]

More Wing Chun sparring, this time against the MMA-ists' beloved Kickboxing....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4Jq...eature=related




.

[Hardwork108]

More Wing chun fighting:

Vs Karate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-H...eature=related

Vs.

Northern Shaolin Kung fu


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv2FULpeTto









.

[jesper]

If you are talking about WCK schools that have active even amateur fighters in it, the world is very small. Miniscule as a matter of fact.

If this is nonsense, please list all the schools in this big world. Maybe we can find video of their fights.

So only sportsfighting counts in your world. Ok you win

[Vajramusti]

Of course they are not. I am talking about evidence.

Evidence meaning fights where at least one of the proponents are listed as some form of WCK competitor and are available on the Internet.

Here's one example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLRX1P0bEg

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Have fun with your strawman arguments and subjective definitions and opinions. Your previous post referred to back weighted wing chun. I pointed out that not alll of wing chun is not back weighted. "Some form of wing chun" is hardly a good characterization of wing chun.But anyone can have opinions- and ideas on indicators of quality such as "internet availability"-good luck with yours and your thread..

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

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Have fun with your strawman arguments and subjective definitions and opinions. Your previous post referred to back weighted wing chun. I pointed out that not alll of wing chun is not back weighted. "Some form of wing chun" is hardly a good characterization of wing chun.But anyone can have opinions- and ideas on indicators of quality such as "internet availability"-good luck with yours and your thread..

joy chaudhuri

Joy,

My previous post referred to the bulk of WCK that is shown in a fighting scenario and available. Both you and I know that I do not believe all WCK is back weighted. What you practice is not, and what HFY practices is not. Neither is TWC. Robert Chu's method is not, as the body methods he teaches and structure tests would not work back weighted.

Perhaps "internet availability" of evidence is a stretch. However, besides that, what do you propose you use to examine that which is in existence?

Friendship seminars? Chi sau tournaments? Legend? Family stories about how sigung took out 20 street punks while going to tea? You have to use something. It may not be the best indicator of quality. And yet, WCK people basically don't fight. But they "can", right?

WCK is basically dying right now. The sport fighting is killing it. So many areas have live competitions / fights 2X a month at least, and they are becoming more and more popular. How many sports fighter students do you have? How about anyone who teaches on this forum?

As far as "my" thread, it's not. I only am keeping it up for evidence in case Hendrik gets mad like he did the last time we had this discussion and deletes the other thread. That's one way of censoring any opposition. You see, all of the posts that indicated dissent to his position, they are nowhere to be found. Now, 2-3 years later, he can recycle it, and keep control over threads they are in, and never promise to not delete them. You saw I asked him to do this on his thread, and he will not respond to that.

This way, he can make sweeping statements like his club is world wide, and those world wide share his views.

No, there is a large contingent of WCK practitioners who completely contrast WCK energies to any TCMA southern animal styles. There is another large contingent who trace their WCK to crane and tiger, as opposed to crane and snake.

There are many families of WCK that can trace common phrases in the kuen kuit to what they train. However, they are different. There are different implementations of the kuit.

There are other families close to WCK - like weng chun who have similar tin yan dei energies but are not WCK. They use other forms like Flower Fist and 3 Bows to Buddha to cultivate their energies.

It's a big wide world. There are many families of WCK. Not just one who trace down through Hendrik.

[Wayfaring]

Originally Posted by Hendrik
1, YJKYM is based on Nature post of human. In that post every part of the body could be loosen up.

Thus, in the begining of training, the proper way is to stand high stance instead of low stance where one becomes tense. Often one even has to go into laying flat to sense the loose up. Thus, it is not a brute force training but a tuning training where one keep tuning the body until it resonance with the nature.


3, One cannot connect the Ren and Du using lower abdorment breathing by force. That is consider mis practiced.

The true practice is when the mind is quiet, the body is loose, with natural breathing one first open the Ren and store Zhen Qi in the Dan Dien, and then once the Dan Dien's Zhen Qi accumulation is strong, it will be able flow into the Du and up to the top and comes down back to the Dan dien.

However, none of the above could be done via a slight forcefull. one needs a sifu who has experience to coach one with this. Even if just cultivate to open the Ren and capable to Store Zhen Qi into Dan Dien without open up the Du, one will feel the different in health obviously.

So, without Baisi to some one who has that kung fu attainment, one will not be able to attain the state.


4, Kua, hip and feets and spine are not easy to be loosen up and handle. Each of these area has a different key to handle. so it cannot be brute force. also, when one is breathing the spine is also sync with the breathing, so nothing is hold fix but everything is sync and align within a range. that is the key.


5, according to the Yik Kam SLT kuen kuit, after the above is attained when one do the SLT the flow of Qi in the medirians will surface. IE: biu jee will cause the 3 ying hands medirians to flow, lap sao will cause the 3 yang hands medirians to flow. fook sau will cause the 3 ying medirians to flow, wu sau will cause the 3 yang medirians to flow.

In other families of WCK, is the purpose of SLT to connect the Ren and Du points in meridians? Or does it have some other primary purpose?

Why would you use a martial art form to open up meridians that usually is done through meditiation and a guide?

If you don't bai si (have a formal discipleship arrangement with) to someone that uses SLT to connect Ren and Du through SLT, do you not have WCK?

Just opening discussion to other viewpoints.

[Wayfaring]

Do you have anything to share on Why WCK is WCK compare with other Southern TCMA ?

Sure. I alluded to this on the other thread. One of the most basic ways WCK is WCK as opposed to all the other Southern TCMA like:

Lohan
Northern Longfist
5 Animals
Snake
Crane
Tiger
Monkey
Dragon
Hung Gar
Mantis
etc.

is that it is NOT based upon animal forms and energies, but upon human structure of a person on two feet with two eyes, ears, arms, feet, fists.

Although some of the shapes may LOOK SIMILAR, and the energies may be VAGUELY SIMILAR, WCK is based upon efficiency for a HUMAN.

Even the legend of Yim Wing Chun shows you that if you have eyes and ears open to listen to it.

A small woman developing a system that can beat a larger and more athletic opponent. How can this happen? Through EFFICIENCY.

Can a smaller snake eat a bigger snake? Can a smaller crane overcome a larger crane? NO. In all of the animal kingdom, the larger rules the smaller. Throughout the food chain.

How can you break this cycle? Through EFFICIENCY - be more compact, be in the right place at the right time with the right energies FOR YOUR STRUCTURE - A HUMAN.

That's where centerline and sticking come in. By being INSIDE the POWER GENERATION dynamics of the larger wheels. By controlling your opponent from a bridge. Birds and reptiles do not move like that.

Geez. Snakes and Cranes. Bird goes in the fryer for my dinner. Snakes get killed by a rock from 10 feet away and become my wallet. You want to fight like one of those - slide step and slither away !!!!!!



Just preserving this so you-know-who cannot get "artistic" with the Delete key.

[Hardwork108]

Can a smaller snake eat a bigger snake? Can a smaller crane overcome a larger crane? NO. In all of the animal kingdom, the larger rules the smaller. Throughout the food chain.

How can you break this cycle? Through EFFICIENCY - be more compact, be in the right place at the right time with the right energies FOR YOUR STRUCTURE - A HUMAN.

And what happens when a Wing Chun Efficient human meets a larger and more powerful Wing Chun efficient human?

His goose is cooked, that is what happens! So that is no different from your animal kingdom.

That's where centerline and sticking come in. By being INSIDE the POWER GENERATION dynamics of the larger wheels. By controlling your opponent from a bridge.

Other kung fu styles do that too, including some of the animal ones!

Look, eventhough I love Wing Chun and I was fortunate enough to study a very rich Mainland Chinese lineage, and that if practiced correctly, it can even qualify as an high level style, but I don't think that it is intelligent for you to imply that WC is the best style of kung fu around, or at least better than all of the animal styles, because it just isn't!

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1048798]Joy,

My previous post referred to the bulk of WCK that is shown in a fighting scenario and available. Both you and I know that I do not believe all WCK is back weighted. What you practice is not, and what HFY practices is not. Neither is TWC. Robert Chu's method is not, as the body methods he teaches and structure tests would not work back weighted.

((This is more clarfication than was in the earlier post I commented on. Good and thanks))

Perhaps "internet availability" of evidence is a stretch. However, besides that, what do you propose you use to examine that which is in existence?

((I don't propose or preach. Self defense involves individual judgement on what is suitable .Wing Chun is not the only fighting art. After careful examination, judgement, practice, experimentation and application- I happen to think that well taught wing chun is a superb fighting art. A judgement call- as far as I can tell much of wing chun is not well taught, understood or practiced. Many folks would be better off learning some other art from a good teacher in that art))

And yet, WCK people basically don't fight.

(( An overgeneralization. There are quite a few people I know who have fought and some still do fight-but have zero interest in videotaping and putting it on U tube. Some owe it to themselves to know whether their stuff works but they dont necessarily owe an audience anything.))

WCK is basically dying right now.

((It has never been an art for the masses. From that standpoint it is still alive))

So many areas have live competitions / fights 2X a month at least, and they are becoming more and more popular.
((So what?))

How many sports fighter students do you have?((Relevance of the question? No need for chest beating here!!))

How about anyone who teaches on this forum?

((Somebody "teaches" on this forum??))


I only am keeping it up for evidence in case Hendrik gets mad like he did the last time we had this discussion and deletes the other thread.

((I have my disagreemensts and agreements with Hendrik -no big deal))


There are many families of WCK that can trace common phrases in the kuen kuit to what they train. However, they are different. There are different implementations of the kuit.

(Uniformed opinions and noise on practically anything abounds on the internet- so what??))

Cheers-no time for proofreading-so typos remain.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Nt2YSTNNA


But of course, this is sports fighting..........

Most people on this forum are familiar with Shawn Obasi. He doesn't post here but has relayed posts. He is one of the few outside of Alan Orr's guys who do fight and claim to be 'WCK fighters'. He's an exception to the norm.

Of interest is that Shawn also trains BJJ at American Top Team, I believe. Alan Orr's guys train BJJ with Leo Negao, a black belt BJJ competitor.

Now how you classify these guys as anything other than "MMAists" I have no idea, other than by your general head-injury-like avoidance of reality.

Shawn has a BJJ guard, although not a great one he was at least attacking from the bottom, and escaping.

His opponent had next to zero striking skills, but was a big guy who seems to have wrestled. He didn't have submission ground skills either, so once Shawn sprawled on him a few time and got some striking going it was all over. The wrestler couldn't even replace guard at the end when Shawn was GNP'ing him.

I wish Shawn all the best and hope he continues to prove his WCK base and advance in the ground game too - he should prove to have an interesting lower level show fight career, and hopefully more if he can prove himself.

[Wayfaring]

More Wing Chun sparring, this time against the MMA-ists' beloved Kickboxing....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4Jq...eature=related




.

This is back-weighted WCK too - oh the horror. The kickboxer seemed pretty low level. But that's what WCK people are supposed to do - own the centerline.

Sparring like this is what should happen regularly in every class. Except instead of like a fencing match, where you have one advance and then they stop and walk around for 30 seconds before re-engaging, set a timer for a 3-5 min round.

This video has the flavor of the kickboxer running his mouth and the WCK guy having something to prove. It's all good - glad he could do something with it.

[Wayfaring]

So only sportsfighting counts in your world. Ok you win

Just something that has some kind of verifiable evidence. I suppose killing someone in a street fight would be verifiable evidence too. So those videos or accounts with at least 2 witnesses are in as well.

What else do you propose as evidence?

[Wayfaring]

More Wing chun fighting:

Vs Karate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-H...eature=related

Well this is actually in a ring. So yes it's a fight. This again is what WCK is supposed to do - own the centerline, have forward pressure.

The opponent has zero ability to make him pay for overextending himself though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv2FULpeTto

Not sure what this is - Sanda?

So over 3 continents, we can come up with 3 or 4 videos. Now I think Phil Redmond has other ones of his guys, and he has a site dedicated to WCK and fight / encounter videos.

But still, it's pretty weak. EVERYONE in local areas who train MMA and have taken fights have live evidence of fighting ability.

You missed this one - Milton Wallace. He studied HFY for a while at least:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzYGCK1oVYw

But still - the sheer numbers of it is overwhelming. Or lack of numbers on the WCK side.