The basic WCK punch

[CFT]

You mean the double lansaus that turn 180 degrees?

The 3 juts over tan are after the 180-deg turning double lan.

In the CK form that Yip Man taught his Foshan students it is a fuk sau over the tan, not jut. Don't know how much of a difference it would make development wise. What do you think Graham?

[Graham H]

The 3 juts over tan are after the 180-deg turning double lan.

In the CK form that Yip Man taught his Foshan students it is a fuk sau over the tan, not jut. Don't know how much of a difference it would make development wise. What do you think Graham?

Unable to think of that as Fook Sau is a punching concept to me so fook sau over tan sau would be two punches which doesn't make sense. These actions are for opening the way for the punch in my lineage. (should it be required of course.....no obstructions then no need for jut sau)

GH

[k gledhill]

CK is about making attacks with mobility , we use all the juts, paks, bongs, facing etc...
SLT teaches the elbows to strike out/ leave, from our strong point, the center iow the elbows are made to go to the center 'behind' the fist, the fist x the centerline slightly to intercept and sweep simultaneously.

The drills make the centered striking and forearms become aligned and have stability and force from CK body weight/momentum..etc...

very ingeniously simple... but doing all this isnt easy under pressure...so lots of training.

[Graham H]

but doing all this isnt easy under pressure...so lots of training.

.........and thinking

[LoneTiger108]

Their ideas died with them mate. If they didn't then WSL, Ip Chun, Ip Ching, Chu Shong Tin etc etc etc......would be teaching the same thing.

Well, apparently Lee Shings teaching DIDN'T die with him dude, or I've just made up everything I've said on here! As for the others you mention, all younger martial artists than my Sigung. And I don't mean to be too analytical here but WSL's method should be exactly like Ip Chuns/Chings or Chu Shong Tins in ESSENCE. Applications are their own ideas in the end.

WSL had a certain intelligence and connection with Yip Man. It must have been that way. Unfortunately some of WSL's students didn't have that "certain intelligence"

Coming from the man who talks of simplicity!!

This "certain intelligence" you speak of is a mystery to me. I'm of the opinion that there are no secrets other than good old hard work both physically and mentally.

The 3 juts over tan are after the 180-deg turning double lan.

Oh. I see now. That's actually the Jut/Tok combination I talked of ages ago! But Grahams also said before that there are no Toksaus in WSLVT?

I think the forms will remain a mystery until someone actually teaches them properly, and in all honesty I don't think any Chinese Sifu has to this day.

In the CK form that Yip Man taught his Foshan students it is a fuk sau over the tan, not jut. Don't know how much of a difference it would make development wise.

See this is what I mean.

How come you don't understand that the jutsau in CK IS a fooksau? Fook is the concept and jut is the actual term used in application. There is a bong and tan Jutsau too, or am I making no sense again?

When you are 'solo' as in the forms it is normal to only refer to the conceptual hand positions like bong, tan and fook and maybe this is what Ip Man done in Foshan. It also indicates that he didn't teach them guys to USE it! Whereas with WSL he obviously DID!

[CFT]

Oh. I see now. That's actually the Jut/Tok combination I talked of ages ago! But Grahams also said before that there are no Toksaus in WSLVT?

They don't call it tok sau in WSLVT. What Graham has explained about the jut/tan punch relationship makes sense if you appreciate that PB teaches the tan/jum -> punch ideas.

How come you don't understand that the jutsau in CK IS a fooksau? Fook is the concept and jut is the actual term used in application.

Seems to me all of the Wing Chun hand actions can be concepts. Why do you differentiate fook as conceptual and jut as application?

There is a bong and tan Jutsau too, or am I making no sense again?

Where is that then?

When you are 'solo' as in the forms it is normal to only refer to the conceptual hand positions like bong, tan and fook and maybe this is what Ip Man done in Foshan. It also indicates that he didn't teach them guys to USE it! Whereas with WSL he obviously DID!

I don't think so. How can you tell from my bgeninner's knowledge what the Foshan students knew?

[LoneTiger108]

They don't call it tok sau in WSLVT. What Graham has explained about the jut/tan punch relationship makes sense if you appreciate that PB teaches the tan/jum -> punch ideas.

I think I also understand where this "tan is a punch" concept originated but there's no point trying to teach old dogs new tricks is there!?

Listen, it's CK dude! ALL terms should be the SAME. If there are variations, then there have been some that have been taught and some that have not.

Seems to me all of the Wing Chun hand actions can be concepts. Why do you differentiate fook as conceptual and jut as application?

No. I disagree. There is an engine that drives everyones Wing Chun imho and that has to be THE SAME in all families. That is the SEED of bong tan and fook. The TERMS like jutsau give meaning to the hand and shouldn't be considered the same.

I don't think so. How can you tell from my bgeninner's knowledge what the Foshan students knew?

Dude. It was YOU who said they use the fooksau and I was attempting to explain why that would be. If I can't share what I think, how could you "not think so"!?

[Graham H]

WSL's method should be exactly like Ip Chuns/Chings or Chu Shong Tins in ESSENCE. Applications are their own ideas in the end.

Well they are not!!!

This "certain intelligence" you speak of is a mystery to me. I'm of the opinion that there are no secrets other than good old hard work both physically and mentally.

This "certain intelligence" idea was used by WSL himself. I have it in writing.

Oh. I see now. That's actually the Jut/Tok combination I talked of ages ago! But Grahams also said before that there are no Toksaus in WSLVT?

Correct!!! There isn't.

I think the forms will remain a mystery until someone actually teaches them properly, and in all honesty I don't think any Chinese Sifu has to this day.

I don't agree with that!!!

How come you don't understand that the jutsau in CK IS a fooksau?

In my lineage Fook Sau and Jut Sau are two totally different ideas!!

GH

[Vajramusti]

Lone Tiger 108 sez:
"
I think the forms will remain a mystery until someone actually teaches them properly, and in all honesty I don't think any Chinese Sifu has to this day."
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?????????!!!!!! What in the world.......?

joy chaudhuri

[Graham H]

You get all sorts on here LMAO.

Lone Tiger you have got to have made the second worse statement on this forum ever!!!! LOL

[CFT]

Graham, what's the worst?

There are plenty of non-Chinese sifu teaching good Wing Chun out there. I'd be so bold as to say they are outnumbered by the no. of Chinese sifu teaching poor Wing Chun.

[Graham H]

Graham, what's the worst?

.

Everything that Terence writes!!! LMAO

GH

[Vajramusti]

LOL- that wasa lulu by Lone Tiger.

But not surprising. Internet discussions often are filled with folks who generalize about entire ranges of things as facts when they should just limit themselves to their opinions based on their own sampling of cases.
I don't pay much attention to this forum, nor take it seriously.When i come back to visit- the noise remains.
Almost no moderation, direction-less, repetitive(basically rewording of the same posts by frequent posters)- but sometimes good for laughs.

[Graham H]

LOL- that wasa lulu by Lone Tiger.

But not surprising. Internet discussions often are filled with folks who generalize about entire ranges of things as facts when they should just limit themselves to their own sampling of cases.
I don't pay much attention to this forum, nor take it seriously.When i come back to visit- the noise remains.
Almost no moderation, direction-less, repetitive(basically rewording of the same posts by frequent posters)- but sometimes good for laughs.

I agree 100% Joy

[LoneTiger108]

You get all sorts on here LMAO.

Lone Tiger you have got to have made the second worse statement on this forum ever!!!! LOL

Well I guess that's wot happens when you're shooting from the hip and trying to fit my crazy mind onto this forum inbetween work eh!!?? I had a bad day, but this has actually brightened me a little...

LOL- that wasa lulu by Lone Tiger.

I agree! I only just realized we're talking about forms of "The Basic Wing Chun Punch" thread!!!!! Sorry guys, for the negativity and lack of thought in my posts lately...