what the difference?

[horserider]

What lineage are you talking about?


All Lineage. Wing Chun is Wing Chun. Again you make my point in your last two posts. The fact that something is lost or not practiced in a line of Wing Chun does not mean it does not exist. It is this very loss that threatens Wing Chun as a viable fighting art in today's world.

Yes Mr T.Niehoff you seem to understand. However I do not like to say control because it conveys to some a period longer than it's momentary nature.
You are right of course the ability to do something is always an issue. Thus the need for practice against real resistince to gain the need abilities.

Yes, of course a fight can be finished with a punch,elbow or Knee etc etc. However all one needs to do is watch any UFC and see how many punches are thrown and of those how many actually end fights to see that in the real world, not the ,my version of wing chun is better than your version of wing chun world, relying on a strike to finish a fight is not a truly practical solution.


To Knifefighter I do not understand your question for proof. My family teaches this,all our students learn this what more proof is there?

Look at the last move of the Yip Man dummy form for this. It is a lop sau with a sweep/kick to the supporting leg. A lop Sau done correctly is a throw. The man lands on his face. kicking out the support leg insures this

[t_niehoff]

What happened to 'hold them up and hit them'?

In the "old days" in China, you were considered the victor in challenge fights when you put the other guy on the ground. Remember the story of Leung Bik fighting the young Yip Man (even if not true, it is illustrative of the culture)? What did Leung do but threw Yip to win.

The last of Sum Nung's san sik is white crane seizes fox, a quick throw.

But what I have found through experience is that today sweeping someone or throwing them doesn't end the fight, and often can leave you in a worse position, particularly if you don't go down with them and establish control.

As the KK says, the method comes from the ancestors, the key is adapting it to conditions.

I wouldn't consider Kwai Sat a 'sweep' either or most of the other leg moves used to break their horse..as a take down per se..like a sickle sweep for example. As for throwing it's simply not in Yip's version IMO although the seeds may well be there.

The tools are there but using them to sweep or throw are not emphasized in Yip's curriculum.

[YungChun]

All Lineage. Wing Chun is Wing Chun. Again you make my point in your last two posts. The fact that something is lost or not practiced in a line of Wing Chun does not mean it does not exist. It is this very loss that threatens Wing Chun as a viable fighting art in today's world.

You come off like just another guy with "The Real Chun"...

There is substantial leg work in Yip's line of Chun... Most of the moves I would not term a sweep in the disconnected knock them over sense..

There are many moves designed to break the horse...however..

The goal of Chun is not to throw them.

In any case the problem with Chun IMO is not that the throws are missing... (or that the secret way is missing) Not by a long shot..

But if you are going to claim to have the secrets then let's see it...or even any example of it in actual fighting..

[Knifefighter]

To Knifefighter I do not understand your question for proof. My family teaches this,all our students learn this what more proof is there?

Look at the last move of the Yip Man dummy form for this. It is a lop sau with a sweep/kick to the supporting leg. A lop Sau done correctly is a throw. The man lands on his face. kicking out the support leg insures this

Proof... of people actually applying these things against resisting opponents... not some theoretical pretend nonsense done in the dummy form.

[YungChun]

But what I have found through experience is that today sweeping someone or throwing them doesn't end the fight, and often can leave you in a worse position, particularly if you don't go down with them and establish control.

Throws are not fight enders.. They are fight repeaters..

They normally do less damage which is why they are emphasized in Aiki..

Not to say you couldn't throw them into pavement and hurt them badly, still typically not.

For the 'polite contest' sure.

[t_niehoff]

In any case the problem with Chun IMO is not that the throws are missing... (or that the secret way is missing) Not by a long shot..

But one problem is that people don't want to look outside their own little lineage and see the broader view of WCK.

Take the throws, sweeps that horserider talks about -- even if you don't want to use them as throws or sweeps but only as ways of destroying structure (you don't fully execute the sweep or throw but only do it enough to disrupt your opponent) -- they are elements of the broader art.

[t_niehoff]

Throws are not fight enders.. They are fight repeaters..

They normally do less damage which is why they are emphasized in Aiki..

Not to say you couldn't throw them into pavement and hurt them badly, still typically not.

For the 'polite contest' sure.

You are not looking from the historical/cultural context but from a modern context.

[YungChun]

But one problem is that people don't want to look outside their own little lineage and see the broader view of WCK.

Take the throws, sweeps that horserider talks about -- even if you don't want to use them as throws or sweeps but only as ways of destroying structure (you don't fully execute the sweep or throw but only do it enough to disrupt your opponent) -- they are elements of the broader art.

That's what they are... We have tons of leg moves.. I just don't think of them as sweeps per se but as horse destroyers..and normally that is from inside with contact, as in the kicks...

Still it's not IMO "the goal"...but part of a process or stage of control..

[YungChun]

You are not looking from the historical/cultural context but from a modern context.

Well in the old days you remarked that they would throw in a contest right?

Exactly my point: It was a (safer) way to show control without pounding his face into mush..still is.

[t_niehoff]

Proof... of people actually applying these things against resisting opponents... not some theoretical pretend nonsense done in the dummy form.

horserider mentions:

Look at the last move of the Yip Man dummy form for this. It is a lop sau with a sweep/kick to the supporting leg. A lop Sau done correctly is a throw. The man lands on his face. kicking out the support leg insures this.

Or, to put this in modern terms, a two-on-one and a foot sweep.

[t_niehoff]

That's what they are... We have tons of leg moves.. I just don't think of them as sweeps per se but as horse destroyers..and normally that is from inside with contact, as in the kicks...

Still it's not IMO "the goal"...but part of a process or stage of control..

Sum Nung told Rene that he always wanted to put his opponent on the floor (even after beating him senseless) since then "there would be no question as to who won the fight." I think this was the old-timers' view. And they taught, get in, control him while pounding him, and then finish by putting him on the ground.

[YungChun]

Sum Nung told Rene that he always wanted to put his opponent on the floor (even after beating him senseless) since then "there would be no question as to who won the fight." I think this was the old-timers' view. And they taught, get in, control him while pounding him, and then finish by putting him on the ground.

I can see that...

That is the end result of breaking the horse and holding him up to finish him..

[chusauli]

Even the word "Saat" (Cantonese) or "Sha" (Mandarin) in Chinese didn't always mean "Killed" - it could also mean "disabled" or "unconscious", "stopped" or "Knocked-out", or "Killed his ardor/desire" depending on the context.

Chinese martial arts practitioners have generally stopped when one is knocked down to the ground or off a Lei Tai.

[t_niehoff]

Yes, of course a fight can be finished with a punch,elbow or Knee etc etc. However all one needs to do is watch any UFC and see how many punches are thrown and of those how many actually end fights to see that in the real world, not the ,my version of wing chun is better than your version of wing chun world, relying on a strike to finish a fight is not a truly practical solution.

And if we look at the same UFC fights, you don't see sweeps or throws ending fights either, do we?

As I said, I think the the old days, they wanted to put the opponent on the floor (even after beating him senseless) since then "there would be no question as to who won the fight." And so they taught, get in, control him while pounding him, and then finish by putting him on the ground.

It wasn't that the throw in-and-of itself "finished" the opponent but that you performed it when you were finished beating the crap out of him!

However, in "friendly" fights, it was a good way to establish who had superior skills since to perform it required that you get in safely, control the opponent to set up the throw or sweep, and then execute it. And to do so without having to put a hurt in.

[horserider]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1051004]And if we look at the same UFC fights, you don't see sweeps or throws ending fights either, do we?

Lol have you ever tried to throw or sweep spme one who is resisting ,punching ,countering ,attacking you? Watch high level Judoka . How pretty are their throws? Without striking? Not very. Wing Chun has a whole series of throws and sweeps. they work best after you have punched or elbowed some one a few times thus stunning them or breaking their center or gaining control over their center of gravity in some way.

It seems like this whole form has been sold a bill of goods. Wing Chun is not some magic that will allow you to do things that no other fighting art can do. No Kung Fu movie fights although they do look good.

Wing chun trains all phases of stand up fighting ending with throws to the ground. This should be no different than any other stand up art. Boxing is a sport so no throws. Also wing chun trains how to resist /prevent being thrown or swept.

No magic no special only i know the real wing chun. It is in all wing chun.

Yung Chun I can not help if you were not taught the whole system. I have talked with many wing chun Sifu from many different families over the years including Ip Man direct students. Everyone had the same elements just what some emphasized was different.

I have been told be several Ip Man students over the years he told them to go out and fight if they really wanted to learn wing chun. It is very clear that even if these student of Ip Man did this his grand and great grand students have not done this.