Lama Pai, Hop Gar, Bak Hok

[taichi4eva]

Hi jdhowland,

In your opinion what are the major differences between Hop Gar and White Crane?

Also, Ku Chi Wai's group says that Ng Yim Ming focused mainly on the 28 stars, a form consisting of seed tickets that could be taken apart and parsed together. Were you also taught a version of this form?

[jdhowland]

In your opinion what are the major differences between Hop Gar and White Crane?

Also, Ku Chi Wai's group says that Ng Yim Ming focused mainly on the 28 stars, a form consisting of seed tickets that could be taken apart and parsed together. Were you also taught a version of this form?

No real differences that I can see in the functional area. There are so many lineages of both that there could be as much difference between two Hop Ga schools as between Hop Ga and White Crane. In the past the names were somewhat interchangeable. Wong Yen Lam taught into old age and taught his later students differently as his eyesight failed. I suspect that Wong Yen Lam and Wong Lam Hoi did not think of their arts as being different. Ng Siu Jung's White Crane expanded with the success of his schools and developed more flavors from other systems but it did not change its essence as a "Lama style."

Compared to most TWC schools Hop Ga is pared down and does not stress a vast array of weapons. I also have a feeling that Hop Ga remains a bodyguard style in that it does not emphasize self defense. It is about taking someone out with little regard to personal safety. White Crane has expanded to the point that it is actually a little harder to define as a style.

I don't know anything about the 28 stars. Folks who know better than I have said that Ku Chi Wai learned for only a brief period (weeks, not months) and that Ng was reluctant to teach him. Personally, I have only seen a couple of videos showing his style and I can say that the footwork is definitely not Hop Ga style.

[TenTigers]

All 3 forms contain punch, kick sieze and wrestle- it is not that each form concentrates on one type of move, rather it is the concept of each set that is different:

Siu Law Horn is to teach 'big opening' and 'big closing'. Steps are large and power generation is in a wide arc. This form really contains all of the seed techniques of the style. The form concentrates on offensive moves.

Fu Hok Serng Dow is about evasion. Angling, stepping and defensive movements. The form contains hard and techniques like claws and grips, plus soft movements like whipping strikes.

Dai Law Horn is about body method rather than step method. It requires more skill to apply because the idea is to make his strike miss by a small amount and counter to vital areas. This form uses the 'single finger' technique and phoenix eye fist to attack points.



Could Fong Yuk Shu have learned from Deng Gum To? Don't want to argue, but it bears his trademarks (I have practised Deng Family Hap Gar for over 20 years and learned directly from his son in Canton.)



http://www.youtube.com/user/DavidRogers99?feature=mhee
http://www.risingcrane.co.uk/page15.html

Sifu Rogers, where does Siu Dat Mo fit in?

[RisingCrane]

Siu Dat Mo (aka Gum Gong Kune) is the first form taught. I have seen Siu Law horn and Tiger/Crane taught in either order but Siu Dat Mo is always first, and Dai Law Horn last.
The Siu Dat Mo form is shorter than the other sets (I think the reason its not seen so much is because the sequence is too short for competition [minimum 60 seconds])
The form has both long and short hands, knees, elbow and shoulder strikes, trips and kicks- so it is a very useful sequence to practise, does not require a great deal of space, and it is not too difficult for beginners to learn.

[jdhowland]

RisingCrane, have you (or anyone) produced a video on Siu Dat Mo? I'm curious to see if there is any relationship to our gam gong techniques.


.

[RisingCrane]

I do not have a video of the set, sorry.
Here is my son performing it in Hong Kong. He was 9 years old and there are a few mistakes so don't take this as textbook- but it will give you some idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0OVd-mC0k8

[jdhowland]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0OVd-mC0k8

Very cool. Thanks for posting this.

[once ronin]

Sifu Rogers,

You son at 9 years old train really well.

Is your Deng lineage relate to Choy yee Gung or Lee Cheong linage in Guangzhou?

[RisingCrane]

Once Ronin:

Is your Deng lineage relate to Choy yee Gung or Lee Cheong linage in Guangzhou?

No it isn't.

This is the Deng Family Lineage-

http://www.risingcrane.co.uk/page15.html

[madhusudan]

Here is a link to a google map I have been working on in my spare time:

http://goo.gl/maps/tYBFX

It is intended as a reference of openly teaching Tibetan White Crane, Hop Gar and Lama sifus. It is not to be considered complete or authoritative in any way. I have merely compiled some publicly available information into a convenient format. If it is of use or interest, great.

[taichi4eva]

I would like to add Sifu David Cox on the list, in Bradford, PA.

[madhusudan]

Cool, thanks. Will do. In order not to derail the thread, PM me new contacts.

[jdhowland]

quick question: was Hap Ga/lama paai/baak hok called Fat Ga in the past as well?

Thanks, PM, for the following link. Now I see where the question comes from. Fat Ga Lo Hon is a perfectly good name for what later became Hap Ga.



http://practicalhungkyun.com/2013/03...ung-ying-kyun/

[jdhowland]

...Also, Ku Chi Wai's group says that Ng Yim Ming focused mainly on the 28 stars, a form consisting of seed tickets that could be taken apart and parsed together. Were you also taught a version of this form?

I thought this sounded familiar, dug through some old books and found that Lo Wai Keung featured a set by this name in one of his books. I don't know if it is something he made up or received but it is obviously based on only a few seeds of the system. Not even as complete as the basic six strengths set. My guess is that it was designed to get beginning students moving with simple crane techniques.

In contrast, our Hop Ga Kyuhn from Ng Yim Ming features no simple beginning sets or "training sets" but only longer and fairly complex "catalog" sets. Maybe this is because my sifu had already learned White Crane from Ng Siu Jung and didn't need them. I'll have to ask him about this.

[PM]

Thanks, PM, for the following link. Now I see where the question comes from. Fat Ga Lo Hon is a perfectly good name for what later became Hap Ga.

http://practicalhungkyun.com/2013/03...ung-ying-kyun/

Yes, i think so!