Lama Pai, Hop Gar, Bak Hok

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Tiger and crane can most certainly be a stand alone set for a complete system.
Most systems, like Dave mentioned really only had 1 or 2 sets to begin with and then they just added more ( or not) depending on the masters that came after.
Sometimes a teacher would already know a form or two from another system and add them to their new system because he felt they had same value, typically that form would have some modifications / variations.
Sanchin is a prime example.

[jdhowland]

CharlesDaCosta;1064819]One thing we do know for sure is that around "that time" (These styles were famous) the key players actually used each others techniques, and this was to a large extent. Therefore it would not matter if L and CLF came from the same system. They had merged on numerous points thus making them appear to be the same style to the untrained eye.

This makes sense. The idea that these systems merged to some degree is easier to accept than a family tree/common origin model.

I had spoke with a key player in PH. He told me my stances were too high. They should be more like Hung Gar stances. HG I thought ... how could this be, the Lama's system should have been a Chan Quan style. After all, it was supposed to have come from the north and our principles seem more northern ...

Well, do others agree that LS stance work should be more like HG...

No. Quentin Fong told me that most Bak Hok people originally trained in Hung Kyuhn and this influenced their style of teaching. He said that he was fortunate to have learned from Tang Jak Ming who learned only Ng Siu Jung's Bak Hok because it was a very "pure" form of the art. The stances tend to be high and just a little wider than shoulder-width.

This is confirmed by Au Wing Nin's teaching. He was not only a senior student of Ng Siu Jung but also passed on an earlier form of Lama Kyuhn that he learned before becoming Ng's student. This style has the same characteristics.

[lkfmdc]

We could never do the lama sets in competition because all the judges were always hung ga guys who thought you had to have low stances

Low stances and Lama together make about as much sense as wacking off with sand paper

[sanjuro_ronin]

We could never do the lama sets in competition because all the judges were always hung ga guys who thought you had to have low stances

Low stances and Lama together make about as much sense as wacking off with sand paper

Kinky ******* !

[lkfmdc]

Kinky ******* !

says the guy who said he'd hit the trany

[chusauli]

There is certainly enough material in that set to practice just the contents of that set

Plus, most of the "old schools" were basicly one or two sets, but don't tell anyone that, they'll get upset

Completely true!

No need for a dozen or more sets. In many cases, 1 is already too many.

Lama's Siu Lo Han set is already very complete!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Completely true!

No need for a dozen or more sets. In many cases, 1 is already too many.

Lama's Siu Lo Han set is already very complete!

My old HK sifu used to say that all one needs is a base form, and intermediate and an advanced for, more than that and spend too much time doing forms and not enough everything else.

[CharlesDaCosta]

No. Quentin Fong told me that most Bak Hok people originally trained in Hung Kyuhn and this influenced their style of teaching. He said that he was fortunate to have learned from Tang Jak Ming who learned only Ng Siu Jung's Bak Hok because it was a very "pure" form of the art. The stances tend to be high and just a little wider than shoulder-width.

This is confirmed by Au Wing Nin's teaching.

I think I know Quentin (or his nephew), he does Chen Taichi?

In the past, I was always taught that the stances tend to be high and just a little wider than shoulder-width too. Every place in the system I have ever been had high or very low stances (the Taiwanese version like to use the drop stance when doing blocks). So this was a shock.

I do know that many of the uncles I have met have crossed trained at some point. Two of my current teachers have done HG for almost 2 decades, then they switched to PH. But it is not these guys that told me to lower my stances.

Anyway, the info I got from a brother was that Children should be taught to use low stances to build up their leg strength, and then as young adults they can begin to be high.

In my case, I have always been told that I am a bad performer - even when I was the best student in the class. I am starting to compete now and "we" are considered to be a southern style - by the Mainland Chinese -

So, I better do what I have been told, at lease for a while, I am hoping the low stances will improve the look of my performance. I hope to be down there with the HG guys :-).

[CharlesDaCosta]

Kinky ******* !

No !!!!!!!!!!! Rough - would have to be into pain!!

[CharlesDaCosta]

My old HK sifu used to say that all one needs is a base form, and intermediate and an advanced for, more than that and spend too much time doing forms and not enough everything else.

I would have to agree ... less is better ... I already know more forms then I care to remember (12 I think). And most other PH sifus only know one I have been told.

I have been trying to learn all the PH routines because I had hoped they would show me the whole system. And at present, I really do not have a favorite, or one that touches my heart. So I keep hoping to learn a new one.

From my stand point, it would be better to learn one routine that has all the techniques in it. Then vary the way you do the routine based on the principles you are currently training. For example: we have the shooting, the powerful, the evasive, the seizing, and the soft. Then there is the stuff about controlling the forces involve in working circles fast.

[jdhowland]

CharlesDaCosta;1067818]I think I know Quentin (or his nephew), he does Chen Taichi?

That's right. His nephew, Bryant, helped to popularize modern wushu in the SF Bay area.

[chusauli]

My old HK sifu used to say that all one needs is a base form, and intermediate and an advanced for, more than that and spend too much time doing forms and not enough everything else.

Most of what is thought of as 'basic", "intermediate" and 'advanced" are stupid distinctions based on selling moves/sets.

For example:

Taking 3 seeds of Lama as Chuen, Pao and Kup, you can drill endlessly.

First you practice advancing - Chuen, Pao, Kup

Then you do the same retreating.

Then you do it in 8 directions, left right, high, middle and low.
Then add kicks as your footwork, along with leg sweeps, iron brooms, etc.

Then do combos:

Chuen - Chuen
Chuen - Pao
Chuen - Kup

Pao - Chuen
Pao - Pao
Pao - Chuen

Kup - Chuen
Kup - Pao
Kup - Kup

Then add the footwork as described above. Then do more complex combos:

Chuen - Pao - Kup
Pao - Chuen - Kup
Kup - Pao - Chuen, etc. (i hope you've go the idea.)

For $19.99 and your CC, I will send you a blue belt certificate in the mail after you videotape yourself doing this on youtube. LOL!

My point is even a simple set like PH's Luk Lik Kuen can be enough for a lifetime.

And you like to make up a set with the above moves, just have a Lama salutation at the opening and closing, and you've got your own set. Yours is as good as any "traditional" set, maybe better because you found one that suited you and was tailored for you.

And as I see it, David Ross' San Da/MMA stuff is the same as above, but hidden in plain view...

That is the way the old martial arts are.

[Gru Bianca]

...........................
I have been trying to learn all the PH routines because I had hoped they would show me the whole system.
.

I think they call that fat hope....

[lkfmdc]

And as I see it, David Ross' San Da/MMA stuff is the same as above, but hidden in plain view...

That is the way the old martial arts are.

You guys are always letting the cat out of the bag

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most of what is thought of as 'basic", "intermediate" and 'advanced" are stupid distinctions based on selling moves/sets.

Context Robert.
One can easily see Sanchin as beginner, fu hok as intermediate and Iron wire as advanced.
Of course one cans also see doing Sanchin in of itself in a beginner, intermediate and advanced way so sometimes it is not to moves but what is done with them.
Point being that there is nothing wrong with those categories.
But I do agree that more often than not, it is simple a "money grab" or a "lineage grab".