Lama Pai, Hop Gar, Bak Hok

[lkfmdc]

The ethnic Han Chinese are nationalistic to the point of being racist. Sorry, I know that isn't politically correct, but it is still true

There have been very serious attempts to either discredit Lion's Roar martial arts based upon their "foreigness" OR to assimilate them and take away their entire NON Han identity

A book in China claims Lion's Roar was founded by Dat Mo in Shaolin! What a joke.

The "Hap Ga" name was because it was better to call it "Patriot's Style" than "foreign religious sect"

However, there is plenty of NON Han influence in the art

[Gru Bianca]

The ethnic Han Chinese are nationalistic to the point of being racist. Sorry, I know that isn't politically correct, but it is still true

There have been very serious attempts to either discredit Lion's Roar martial arts based upon their "foreigness" OR to assimilate them and take away their entire NON Han identity

A book in China claims Lion's Roar was founded by Dat Mo in Shaolin! What a joke.

The "Hap Ga" name was because it was better to call it "Patriot's Style" than "foreign religious sect"

However, there is plenty of NON Han influence in the art

Yes, pretty much as you say, we are well informed about the peculiarity of the Chinese people.

As per my previous question, could you please tell me which Tibetan martial art/s you had the privilege to be exposed to that allowed you to see the similarities with Lama?

I ask with honesty and with the only intent to know more.

Thank you very much in advance

Regards

[lkfmdc]

I have a student who married a Tibetan woman and lived in the Tibetan community in Northern India. I have also seen some of what the Dalai Lama's bodyguards do. There is also a yoga group whose Guru learned a few martial arts movements while at a monastery in Tibet.

Tibetans are not the most forthright people, some will tell you there are no martial arts in Tibet, never were. But do you really think that there was never any fighting art in a distant, hostile land? Or among a people who conquered an empire?

[Gru Bianca]

I have a student who married a Tibetan woman and lived in the Tibetan community in Northern India. I have also seen some of what the Dalai Lama's bodyguards do. There is also a yoga group whose Guru learned a few martial arts movements while at a monastery in Tibet.

Tibetans are not the most forthright people, some will tell you there are no martial arts in Tibet, never were. But do you really think that there was never any fighting art in a distant, hostile land? Or among a people who conquered an empire?

Thank you very much for your honest reply.

As a matter of fact I myself never believed in the possibility of nonexistence of martial arts in Tibet, especially, as you said, among very "rough" people.

Thank you again.

Regards,

Luca

[CharlesDaCosta]

I would say that Lion's Roar is the proclamation of the Dharma.

Most martial artists would find little meaning in that.

Yes, you are right, the same has to do with Dharma.

[CharlesDaCosta]

When the Buddha was born, he pointed one finger at the earth and one finger at heave and roared like a lion to announce his arrival

At least that's how the story goes

For people whom Buddhism is intricately woven into their life, I could see "Lion's Roar" being used as a term for their martial art

There IS in Tibet an Lion's Roar sect

There are even Lion's Roar Sutras. Several of them. There are even emanations of the different Tibetan deities that are considered the Lion's Roar form so ...

[CharlesDaCosta]

Thank you very much for your honest reply.

As a matter of fact I myself never believed in the possibility of nonexistence of martial arts in Tibet, especially, as you said, among very "rough" people.

Thank you again.

Regards,

Luca

I have talked to a very important Lama about this. He told me that there were sports like horsemanship, wrestling, archery, and a few others. These were the sports of the day.

I spoke to another Lama (of lower rank- a Kempo) he told me that the martial arts learned in temples was and is very simple compared to what is done today.

I also goto the impression that the Dali Lama's body guards did not have their own style. They are just hired a man to do a job.

One thing does seem likely though. Tibetan Culture was heavily influence by India and Mongolia, sometimes I think even more than China. And when I traveled through China, even Hong Honk - I found that Martial Arts was not as popular as I had expected. Today it has become a cultural phenomena.

Therefore, I would assume that one of the other reasons there is not much info (only a legion) is because there never was that much info. Probably not many learned the style as a sport or business (when all these tings become important). It was just learning how to fight, like growing up in a big city full of dangerous people. You did not care about the "style."

[TenTigers]

that's cause they're Ninjas, dude...

[Jimbo]

There is a book out called The Last Lama Warrior; The Secret Martial Art of Tibet, by Yogi Tchouzar Pa. In the book, he refers to the art by its Tibetan name, Senguei Ngaro (Lion's Roar). I've only read a little bit so far. I would be interested to know what you guys think of the book, if you have it or seen it.

[lkfmdc]

There is a book out called The Last Lama Warrior; The Secret Martial Art of Tibet, by Yogi Tchouzar Pa. In the book, he refers to the art by its Tibetan name, Senguei Ngaro (Lion's Roar). I've only read a little bit so far. I would be interested to know what you guys think of the book, if you have it or seen it.

In NY right now, it's almost X-mas, it's cold and as we gather around the fireplace to roast marshmellows and make hot chocolate, we need something to burn. That book is good to get the logs started

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have Michael Staples book on Hop Gar, I don't mind it at all.

[lkfmdc]

Wasn't talking about Staples book....

Was talking about the fake tibetan monk, fake tibetan lion's roar, fake book
that one, the fake one

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wasn't talking about Staples book....

Was talking about the fake tibetan monk, fake tibetan lion's roar, fake book
that one, the fake one

I know, I was just saying that I have Staples and it's a good read.
One of very few tibetan MA book out there.

[chusauli]

Most old cultures have wrestling of some sort.

I know that Tibetan Medicine is a combination of Chinese medicine and Ayurveda. The main text of the 4 Tantras is very similar to the Ashtanga Hridaya... and Indian tradition of the 107 or 108 Marma points would have carried into Tibet.

The question is if the Original Lion's Roar (assuming there was such an art) has Chuen, Pao, Cup, etc. as taught in Lama, Bak Hok and Hap Ga of today, or something different. I know forms were made up when it came to Southern China...why else would there be so many sets?

Chan Tai Shan told me that different monks and different teachers took the basics and made up many different forms, and passed those on. The core sets being Siu Lo Han, Dai Lo Han, Siu Gum Gong, Dai Gum Gong, Tiet Lien, Chut Yap Bo, Fu Hoc Cern Doe, Mien Lui Jum...he taught these and a lot more. But the root of these was Chuen, Pao, Cup swinging like a toy drum like that seen in Karate Kid II...

[lkfmdc]

The question is if the Original Lion's Roar (assuming there was such an art) has Chuen, Pao, Cup, etc.

The "whirling arms" are found in Tibetan martial arts. They are also found in Indian martial art (kalari something, I can never spell it correctly). Also, the more you "muck around" in the footwork, there are things distinctly NOT Chinese in there

Chan Tai Shan told me that different monks and different teachers took the basics and made up many different forms, and passed those on. The core sets being Siu Lo Han, Dai Lo Han, Siu Gum Gong, Dai Gum Gong, Tiet Lien, Chut Yap Bo, Fu Hoc Cern Doe, Mien Lui Jum...he taught these and a lot more. But the root of these was Chuen, Pao, Cup swinging like a toy drum like that seen in Karate Kid II...

CTS had something like 18 to 20 different teachers and they all had different approaches and forms.

According to "legend" the original concepts were Fei Hok Sau, Neih Lahk Sau (Maitreya Buddha) and Do Lou Sau

Later the Gam Gong and Lo Han, both Buddhist concepts so that makes sense

But I honestly don't think that Wong Yan Lam and Wang Lam Hoi learned tons of sets, I think they learned a lot of concepts and movements and the sets came later