Lama Pai, Hop Gar, Bak Hok

[Frost]

The folowing video is an example of some of the Hop Ga Traininng at my school. The 1st form is called lohan Kuen. Its very similar sequentially to the form siu lohan kuen that i've see the deng hop ga lineage do. The apps and fighting drill is the video are based on the techniques and concepts in that form. The techniques at the end are a section of the form che sin kuen.

Hop Ga Kuen/ Lama Pai Kung Fu forms & fighting drills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmsr_5V62eU


Here is a video of my student doing the form Lohan Kuen.

Hop Ga/lama Pai Lohan Kuen
http://youtu.be/2uNtH8Caru8

very nice thanks for sharing

[taichi4eva]

hi Shaolindynasty,

May I ask what che sin kuen translates to?

would you consider posting your version of fu hok seung dau in the future?

Thanks

[RisingCrane]

ShaolinDynasty:
Nice video! I like how you train the fighting techniques: from movement and angles rather than in a 'dead' manner. You have some nice moves and I practise similarly with body movement, stepping etc. very good!

The set at the end that you call 'che sin' is a section of Deng Family 'Dai Lohan'. If your other set is 'Fu Hok Serng Dow' then it is three main sets of Deng Family. No other lineages play those sets.

People have been saying how many sets there are in White Crane/Lama/Hap Gar but when Wong Yan Lum came to Canton there were no sets as we know them today, rather concepts, exercises, techniques and training methods. It was his students that organised them into sets. This was more recent than people like to admit- not more than 150 years ago.

Anyway- good to see people like you performing with proper martial intent but be assured that it is Deng Si Hap Gar

Best wishes,
David

[CLFNole]

Good stuff SD...by the way how much hop gar does your sifu have incorporated into his curriculum? We have some northern stuff incorporated in ours through Shek Kin. I am guess To Hon Jeung learned some Hop Gar or does it go back to Fong Yuk Shu?

[Shaolindynasty]

hi Shaolindynasty,

May I ask what che sin kuen translates to?

would you consider posting your version of fu hok seung dau in the future?

Thanks

Che Sin kuen (pulling wire fist) and I will be posting more videos in the future so we will see

ShaolinDynasty:
Nice video! I like how you train the fighting techniques: from movement and angles rather than in a 'dead' manner. You have some nice moves and I practise similarly with body movement, stepping etc. very good!

The set at the end that you call 'che sin' is a section of Deng Family 'Dai Lohan'. If your other set is 'Fu Hok Serng Dow' then it is three main sets of Deng Family. No other lineages play those sets.

People have been saying how many sets there are in White Crane/Lama/Hap Gar but when Wong Yan Lum came to Canton there were no sets as we know them today, rather concepts, exercises, techniques and training methods. It was his students that organised them into sets. This was more recent than people like to admit- not more than 150 years ago.

Anyway- good to see people like you performing with proper martial intent but be assured that it is Deng Si Hap Gar

Thanks for the compliments. Alot of what you are saying matches what my sifu told me. We practice 3 hop ga forms, lohan, che sin and fu hok serng dao.

are there any resources you could point me to for additional info on the deng family hop ga lineage?

Good stuff SD...by the way how much hop gar does your sifu have incorporated into his curriculum? We have some northern stuff incorporated in ours through Shek Kin. I am guess To Hon Jeung learned some Hop Gar or does it go back to Fong Yuk Shu?

Hop Ga was absorbed into our choy lay fut curriculum by Fong Yuk Shu (1870-1953). We only practice those 3 forms the rest is clf, however the concepts of hop ga can be found in much of our fighting


The history on the NFMA website was actually written by To Sum (To Hon Cheung's son) based off his hand written notes that he got from his father. The notes were then translated by my sifu's son into english for the website the following statement is in regards to his training

"Fong Yuk Shu was born in Canton during the year 1870 to a wealthy gentlemen named Fong Kit Ting. Fong Kit Ting was a martial artist, and a scholar who earned his fortune through his entrepreneurship and many business endeavors. He was an herbalist, the founder of Canton’s Fong Bin Hospital, and the owner of the local water company. He was a renaissance man whose skills in both the martial and the academic arts were passed on to his son, Fong Yuk Shu.

To further his martial studies, Fong Yuk Shu sought scholarship under both Chan Koon Pak, and the martial monk named Jing Han who resided in the Nam Fook Temple located in Ho Nam. "

The martial monk was his hop ga sifu

[CLFNole]

Do you find the hop gar fighting concepts very similar to CLF or somewhat different? I have seen hop gar/lama but know nothing of it. Yeah it's another southern style like CLF but was just curious.

[taichi4eva]

the che sin kuen looks like the last half of the deng family dai lohan set

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANx_sRfPY7U

[taichi4eva]

Hi risingcrane (David),

I was wondering if you could explain the technique progression in the barehand forms of Deng Family Hop Gar- Siu Lohan, Dai Lohan, and Fu Hok Seung Dau. They all seem to be about the same length. Does each form highlight a certain type of fighting, like punching, grappling, throwing, etc.?

Dai Lohan looks like it emphasizes using various hand techniques (i.e. striking with the fingers, claws), more so than Siu Lohan.

[Shaolindynasty]

the che sin kuen looks like the last half of the deng family dai lohan set

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANx_sRfPY7U

actually other than the brief section I posted this is a completely different form to our che sin kuen

Do you find the hop gar fighting concepts very similar to CLF or somewhat different? I have seen hop gar/lama but know nothing of it. Yeah it's another southern style like CLF but was just curious.

First let me say i can only speak to my individual experience and how we utilize each method, others may have a different interpertation. We utilize more bridges for deflection and techs like kum jerng to press the opponents limbs in clf.The Hop Ga Syetem seems to emphasize the strategy 'slipping and hitting". Our clf is a little more compact and uses direct lines in terms of stepping into the opponent while hop ga seems to rely of stepping at angles(evade) and hitting without "blocking" first(intercept). CLF is right side dominant(right side forward) and hop ga seems to use more side to side movement and roughly treats both hands equal. There is some cross over between the strategies of the two and alot of the techniques are similar. People who dont know these methods tend to confuse the 2 because of the swing techniques and other basic similarities. Overall i think the 2 methods compliment each other well and the strengths of each help to cover the weaknesses of each

[jdhowland]

People who dont know these methods tend to confuse the 2 because of the swing techniques and other basic similarities. Overall i think the 2 methods compliment each other well and the strengths of each help to cover the weaknesses of each

I was glad to see this observation. We, too, have CLF and Hop Gar and I think they are just different enough to be complimentary.

[taai gihk yahn]

I was glad to see this observation. We, too, have CLF and Hop Gar and I think the are just different enough to be complimentary.

Chan Tai San's "hybrid" approach to CLF/Lama would seem to support that perspective as well...

[RisingCrane]

Hi risingcrane (David),

I was wondering if you could explain the technique progression in the barehand forms of Deng Family Hop Gar- Siu Lohan, Dai Lohan, and Fu Hok Seung Dau. They all seem to be about the same length. Does each form highlight a certain type of fighting, like punching, grappling, throwing, etc.?

Dai Lohan looks like it emphasizes using various hand techniques (i.e. striking with the fingers, claws), more so than Siu Lohan.

All 3 forms contain punch, kick sieze and wrestle- it is not that each form concentrates on one type of move, rather it is the concept of each set that is different:

Siu Law Horn is to teach 'big opening' and 'big closing'. Steps are large and power generation is in a wide arc. This form really contains all of the seed techniques of the style. The form concentrates on offensive moves.

Fu Hok Serng Dow is about evasion. Angling, stepping and defensive movements. The form contains hard and techniques like claws and grips, plus soft movements like whipping strikes.

Dai Law Horn is about body method rather than step method. It requires more skill to apply because the idea is to make his strike miss by a small amount and counter to vital areas. This form uses the 'single finger' technique and phoenix eye fist to attack points.

Hop Ga was absorbed into our choy lay fut curriculum by Fong Yuk Shu (1870-1953). We only practice those 3 forms the rest is clf, however the concepts of hop ga can be found in much of our fighting

Could Fong Yuk Shu have learned from Deng Gum To? Don't want to argue, but it bears his trademarks (I have practised Deng Family Hap Gar for over 20 years and learned directly from his son in Canton.)

are there any resources you could point me to for additional info on the deng family hop ga lineage?

http://www.youtube.com/user/DavidRogers99?feature=mhee
http://www.risingcrane.co.uk/page15.html

[Shaolindynasty]

Could Fong Yuk Shu have learned from Deng Gum To? Don't want to argue, but it bears his trademarks (I have practised Deng Family Hap Gar for over 20 years and learned directly from his son in Canton.

There does seem to be some common ancestory. I'm not sure how it would map out in terms of the timeline. Fong Yuk Shu lived from 1870-1953 supposedly from the writings we have his hop ga sifu was a martial monk named Jing Han who resided in the Nam Fook Temple located in Ho Nam. If thats the case it would have to been this monk who learned from the Deng lineage. That would put the time possibly into the 1800's or early 1900's at the latest. this is the section on Fong Yuk Shu from my sifus website

Fong Yuk Shu was born in Canton during the year 1870 to a wealthy gentlemen named Fong Kit Ting. Fong Kit Ting was a martial artist, and a scholar who earned his fortune through his entrepreneurship and many business endeavors. He was an herbalist, the founder of Canton’s Fong Bin Hospital, and the owner of the local water company. He was a renaissance man whose skills in both the martial and the academic arts were passed on to his son, Fong Yuk Shu.

To further his martial studies, Fong Yuk Shu sought scholarship under both Chan Koon Pak, and the martial monk named Jing Han who resided in the Nam Fook Temple located in Ho Nam.

At the age of eighteen, Fong Yuk Shu went to the country’s capital to compete in the Mo Jong Yuen competition (complete martial arts grand-championships) held by the Qing dynasty. The prize for winning was an opportunity to become an honorable officer in the Qing military. The championship consisted of five events. First was a contest of strength measured by the pulling of a heavy bow. The second was a demonstration of the Kwan Dao set. The third was a demonstration strength by lifting stone bars of increasing weight. The forth was traditional standing archery, and the final event was archery while riding horseback. Fong Yuk Shu had won the first five events but failed to do so in the last. By refusing to pay the bribe money asked for by the official in charge of the final event, Fong Yuk Shu was given a sick horse thus causing him to lose. He was angered by such corrupt practices.

Disturbed by the Qing’s corruption and moved by Dr. Sun Yat-San convictions, Fong Yuk Shu took initiative and joined the doctor in a revolt against the Qing government. When Fong Yuk Shu became a wanted man for his decision, Dr. Sun convinced him to escape to Singapore until the situation eased. When the revolution was over, Fong Yuk Shu returned to Canton and made a decision to stay away from politics. He began practicing medicine and teaching martial arts in the six schools he had established throughout the Canton area.

In 1925, a big dispute erupted between factions of the factory steel and wood workers that resulted in many violent encounters between the two groups. To remedy the situation, the steel workers union hired Fong Yuk Shu to act as the head instructor for all the local factory unions. Out of respect for Fong Yuk Shu as their teacher, the different fractions decided settle their dispute peacefully.

In 1933, the province of Canton organized a national martial arts championship where Fong Yuk Shu was invited to act as a judge. Of the many competitors, his students took both first and second place standings in both the spear and staff categories. Following the competition, Fong Yuk Shu attempted to consolidate the martial arts community by co-founding the National Chinese Martial Association based in Canton. He also acted as the organization’s technical advisor.

In 1937, Fong Yuk Shu relocated to Hong Kong and established both medical clinics and martial arts schools in the Wan Chai and Kowloon districts. Residents praised him for his generosity and charity as he set up free public medical clinics in Shum Shui Po’s Lung Hing temple and maintained public academic centers in Kowloon’s merchants association headquarters.

After living a life of many great accomplishments and charities, Fong Yuk Shu passed away in 1953.

There is obviously more to this than is written here. Fong Yuk Shu is a pretty well known figure so there is bound to be more info out there. I haven't really talked much with my sifu about the lineage of our hop ga outside what is written above. Our main source of study is with the Choy Lay Fut system and the hop ga info usually is treated as sort of a footnote in terms of the overall history of our school. This conversation has inspired me to ask more quesitons about this when I see him this weekend.

An interesting side note. I was reading up on hop ga history on wiki yesterday and this info struck me as interesting

Jyu Chyuhn (朱亦傳) (1892-1980) was born in the Toi-San district of Guangdong province and began his training in martial arts at an early age. He studied a wide variety of martial arts including the Choi Lei Faht (Choy Lay Fut) style under the direction of Master Chan Goon-Bahk, the son of the style's founder, Chan Heung.[2] Jyu Chyuhn first learned Lama Pai under the direction of Wong Lam-Hoi and then sought out Wong Yan-Lam when he returned to Guangdong. Eventually, Jyu Chyuhn learned the entire Lama Pai system. However, Jyu Chyuhn became interested in Buddhism later in life and, inspired by the stories his teachers told him about their youth, retired near the Clear Cloud Monastery (清 云 寺) in Guangdong Province in southern China.

The reason it caught my eye was this person also studied under Chan Koon Pak as did Fong Yuk Shu. That would be 2 disciples of Chan koon pak that also studied hop ga. i wonder if there was some kind of association between the two schools. Something else that sturck me is when you compare the histories of cho lay fut, hop ga and hung kuen its clear that in guangdong everyone was training with everyone

As for arguing, I am open to many possibilities and dont mind discussing those possibilities.

[taai gihk yahn]

An interesting side note. I was reading up on hop ga history on wiki yesterday and this info struck me as interesting

Jyu Chyuhn (朱亦傳) (1892-1980) was born in the Toi-San district of Guangdong province and began his training in martial arts at an early age. He studied a wide variety of martial arts including the Choi Lei Faht (Choy Lay Fut) style under the direction of Master Chan Goon-Bahk, the son of the style's founder, Chan Heung.[2] Jyu Chyuhn first learned Lama Pai under the direction of Wong Lam-Hoi and then sought out Wong Yan-Lam when he returned to Guangdong. Eventually, Jyu Chyuhn learned the entire Lama Pai system. However, Jyu Chyuhn became interested in Buddhism later in life and, inspired by the stories his teachers told him about their youth, retired near the Clear Cloud Monastery (清 云 寺) in Guangdong Province in southern China.

Jyu Chyuhn was Chan Tai San's CLF and Lama teacher, and was really the guy who combind the two systems; for example, Chan used to do a "chaap chyuhn" which was basically CLF chaap choih but using the mechanics of lama's chyuhn choir, which he said was "unique" to Jyu Chyuhn's approach; I mean, whatever, not some earth-shattering revelation, but interesting; there were probably other examples, but it was a long time ago and I can't remember, lol...

there are people in the NYC area who are more well-versed in the details of all this than I am (LKFMDC & Lama Pai Sifu), but they are no longer on the forum; actually, Lama Pai Sifu (Mike Parella) visited Jyu Chyun's son and learned a form from him some years back which I think was CLF, but contained some "lama-ish" stuff, if I;m not mistaken (which i may be)

[jdhowland]

...Siu Law Horn is to teach 'big opening' and 'big closing'. Steps are large and power generation is in a wide arc. This form really contains all of the seed techniques of the style. The form concentrates on offensive moves.

Fu Hok Serng Dow is about evasion. Angling, stepping and defensive movements. The form contains hard and techniques like claws and grips, plus soft movements like whipping strikes.

Dai Law Horn is about body method rather than step method. It requires more skill to apply because the idea is to make his strike miss by a small amount and counter to vital areas. This form uses the 'single finger' technique and phoenix eye fist to attack points.]

I like this style of organization. It seems to be the same progression seen in early Lama and White Crane teachings.

In contrast, Ng Yim Ming's Hop Gar as taught by Tse Cheuk begins with a fairly difficult set that blends long and short, grappling and point striking. This only works because Cheuk taught his students Hop Gar only after we had completed years of White Crane training. The large frame gings were already in place by the time we were ready to develop the finer points of angling in on an opponent.