Lama Pai, Hop Gar, Bak Hok

[lkfmdc]

Ahh, going back to the old system of training, eh? Renegade! Traditionalist!

I suppose going from a "Lion's Roar" tradition to MMA is a lot easier than from some of the other traditions, I know I am NOT the only one to do so

[Violent Designs]

That is because Hop Ga and CLF are two of the most realistic CMA systems.....

sh1t is natural and it works.

the goal is generally to hit people hard.

without any extraneous, esoteric bullsh1t.

[taai gihk yahn]

In Chan Tai San tradition, we'd have to start with "Siu Lo Han" - all the basics and strong hand work, a few kicks, but not many compared to later forms

To include the leg techniques, I'd be sort of torn between "Dai Gam Gong", "Lo Han Teui" or "Lihn Waan teui"

Finally I'd pick "Fu Hok Seung Daau" for the close quarters, elbows and throws

Fortunately, I just do the techniques now, not the forms, so I don't have to chose

you are nothing more than a gorified kickboxer knucklehead - what could you POSSIBLY know about traditional training; and stop copying names from a Chinese take-out menu and pretendin that they are names of forms!

[bawang]

ya hes so clueless
new york san duh

[lkfmdc]

you are nothing more than a gorified kickboxer knucklehead - what could you POSSIBLY know about traditional training; and stop copying names from a Chinese take-out menu and pretendin that they are names of forms!

well considering YOU and a whole lot of CTS 's people all started their intro to CMA with me, I guess no one knows nothing huh

[lkfmdc]

I especially don't know shuai Jiao's leg seizing throw, right Taai Gihk Yahn

[cerebus]

Many thanks to all those who contributed relevant input, I really appreciate it. I'm really hoping that some day someone will write the definitive text in the English language on one or all of these styles. Michael Staple's books have an amazing amount of information for their size (especially the Hop Gar book) but there is much more that I would love to see covered as well. Maybe some day...

[lkfmdc]

Many thanks to all those who contributed relevant input, I really appreciate it. I'm really hoping that some day someone will write the definitive text in the English language on one or all of these styles. Michael Staple's books have an amazing amount of information for their size (especially the Hop Gar book) but there is much more that I would love to see covered as well. Maybe some day...

meh, been there, done that

[cerebus]

meh, been there, done that

You wrote a book on Lama Pai? If that's what you mean, where could I buy a copy?

[lkfmdc]

You wrote a book on Lama Pai? If that's what you mean, where could I buy a copy?

Most of what I have written over the years has been put up at http://www.angelfire.com/ny/sanshou/lamakungfu.html

[Frost]

Most of what I have written over the years has been put up at http://www.angelfire.com/ny/sanshou/lamakungfu.html

Many thanks for the link

Since we actually have access to someone everyone here considers an inside the door student and real authority on TCMA and a teacher of fighters (well apart from HW108 but lets not go there) do you mind if I ask a few questions about how you approach training in your school with regards to what you learned from CTS (I know you have spoke about this before but not sure if these questions have been asked, apologies if they have)

I know your master was a fighter and you follow in that tradition but I also know he knew and practised a lot of styles and sets so I was wondering do you personally practise your styles sets still, or do you feel that practising the seed/core movements in isolation and in shadow boxing and pad work is more than enough to ingrain the styles essence and approach to fighting? I know you don’t teach the sets to your students but do you still see them as useful for continuing the styles lineage?

I know you have spoken before about how your guys use lama tactics and techniques in the clinch. And when throwing and striking, but in regards to the striking when using longer range strikes does it look like traditional CLF and lama? ie both arms in use and whipping in from various angles both vertical and horizontal axis as well as diagonal, or is it more like you see MMA and sambo guys when they throw overhands and long upper cuts: with the other arm defending the chin and less variety in angles?

[lkfmdc]

I know your master was a fighter and you follow in that tradition but I also know he knew and practised a lot of styles and sets so I was wondering do you personally practise your styles sets still

In most senses NO, we no longer do sets/forms

The only thing we still do are the "chi kung" things (in Lama, in Cantonese, we have Lihn Gung, Heih Gung and Noi Gung). Basicly these are yoga like exercises designed to teach flexibility, strength, balance, etc

I am sure you know a LOT of MMA people do Yoga and variations.

In fact, I think that one of the problems with the "tradtiional" way of forms is that the forms have three elements

1) fighting technique
2) yogic like practice
3) performance

Yet today people don't know which is which and get them all confused

do you feel that practising the seed/core movements in isolation and in shadow boxing and pad work is more than enough to ingrain the styles essence and approach to fighting?

We do a lot of things to develop the skills
1. shadow boxing
2. partner drilling
3. equipment work
4. partial sparring
5. full sparring

I also developed a criteria, a protocol to see what "works" and what doesn't

I know you have spoken before about how your guys use lama tactics and techniques in the clinch.

Not just in the clinch. You know, the funny thing, really, is that people from my actual tradition clearly see us applying the Lion's Roar technique in our fights and teachings (for example David Chin, David Rogers, etc)

And people who know boxing and Muay Thai see we are not doing those things

Our hand strikes, our angles, our fighting strategy is completely different than boxing and frequently different from Muay Thai

but in regards to the striking when using longer range strikes does it look like traditional CLF and lama? ie both arms in use and whipping in from various angles both vertical and horizontal axis as well as diagonal, or is it more like you see MMA and sambo guys when they throw overhands and long upper cuts: with the other arm defending the chin and less variety in angles?

Partially, see above.

Our punches tend to be longer range than traditional boxing. We use a different energy ("ging"). We throw them at different angles, and with different footwork.

HOWEVER, I believe that the other hand MUST protect the face/jaw/chin so you will NOT see the "flailing"

[Frost]

In most senses NO, we no longer do sets/forms

The only thing we still do are the "chi kung" things (in Lama, in Cantonese, we have Lihn Gung, Heih Gung and Noi Gung). Basicly these are yoga like exercises designed to teach flexibility, strength, balance, etc

I am sure you know a LOT of MMA people do Yoga and variations.

In fact, I think that one of the problems with the "tradtiional" way of forms is that the forms have three elements

1) fighting technique
2) yogic like practice
3) performance

Yet today people don't know which is which and get them all confused



We do a lot of things to develop the skills
1. shadow boxing
2. partner drilling
3. equipment work
4. partial sparring
5. full sparring

I also developed a criteria, a protocol to see what "works" and what doesn't



Not just in the clinch. You know, the funny thing, really, is that people from my actual tradition clearly see us applying the Lion's Roar technique in our fights and teachings (for example David Chin, David Rogers, etc)

And people who know boxing and Muay Thai see we are not doing those things

Our hand strikes, our angles, our fighting strategy is completely different than boxing and frequently different from Muay Thai



Partially, see above.

Our punches tend to be longer range than traditional boxing. We use a different energy ("ging"). We throw them at different angles, and with different footwork.

HOWEVER, I believe that the other hand MUST protect the face/jaw/chin so you will NOT see the "flailing"

thanks for the replies, it makes a lot of sense

[jdhowland]

lkfmdc; In most senses NO, we no longer do sets/forms

The only thing we still do are the "chi kung" things (in Lama, in Cantonese, we have Lihn Gung, Heih Gung and Noi Gung). Basicly these are yoga like exercises designed to teach flexibility, strength, balance, etc

Glad to hear you still do these. Those old fogie b*st*rds (who beat up half of Gwangdung Province) knew they were important for daily training.

In fact, I think that one of the problems with the "tradtiional" way of forms is that the forms have three elements

1) fighting technique
2) yogic like practice
3) performance

Yet today people don't know which is which and get them all confused

Right on. Along with the performance aspects in our lama kyuhn are Hung Mun signals that can in no way be construed as fighting techs and repeated combinations that increase the level of exercise without adding new material.

HOWEVER, I believe that the other hand MUST protect the face/jaw/chin so you will NOT see the "flailing"

Delighted to read this. Lama trains to keep the hands up, hence the emphasis on many hours of painful shoulder conditioning with muhk yih pai, crane standing, etc. Our chyun cheui evolves into a jin cheui shot from jaw level with the other hand protecting the head. Both our wc and hg sets feature this. Paau cheui is learned with the parrying hand extending to the rear but is practiced with that hand remaining in contact with the opponent. Tse Sifu applied almost all of his kap cheui as shorter pek cheui with one hand protecting the head.

People who have only seen lama basics will think you are just doing boxing. Arrgh! The angles and principles are different.!

[cerebus]

Great info! Thanks!